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devonport

Retirement Annuities

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devonport

Hi Kiena

I must say that your knowledge with RA's has been a lifesaver for me and I am sure others on this board. As mentioned earlier I will be in SA within a couple of weeks. Hopefully I will be able to sit with someone to get greater clarification.

Your plans are drawing to a close. It is a major move but one that you will not regret. I wish you all the success and happiness in this move.

Take care

Martin

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Lapalala

Hello,

I've been corresponding with Liberty Life, but it appears that they won't pay out to a non-SA account. Does anyone know how to open a bank account in SA from Canada (online without physically going back)?

Thanks,

Lapalala

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M.Bower

Hi Everyone,

Yes, thank you Kiena for all the work you have done on this topic.

I did want to bring one thing up for ALL who are permanent residents (landed immigrants included) that you should speak with your Canadian tax accountant before you cash out your RA because you are taxed in Canada on your WORLDWIDE income; and this would be considered income! THerefore, make sure you either plan on invensting it in an RRSP here in Canada or at least speak to your tax accountant. this is not my specialty, but I am aware of the rules and you should be too.

For those STILL to immigrate, this wont apply to you only those who already live in Canada.

Good luck to you all,

MB

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Guest Barbara

We are in the same boat. I would like to know if we can open an SA bank account from here for our RA's.

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Lapalala

Hi MB,

Thanks for the headsup re the "income".

Would the amount of the RA be taxed as a once-off when it comes in Canada? I'm assuming that for a paid-up policy, it would not be back taxes on all the years the RA has been in effect?

I know there's probably a withholding tax in SA of 10-15% for removing our monies.

Thanks,

Lapalala

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Lapalala

Hi folks,

Has any heard of Consolidated Financial Planners in Randburg at www.consolidated.co.za? I managed to find them on the 'net and am corresponding with an FP to see if they can help me get my RA out of SA. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Lapalala

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Jill

Hi Lapalala

Did you eventually get your RA out of SA?

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Guest Barbara

I think he did. We are busy with the process right now too.

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Jill
I think he did. We are busy with the process right now too.

If you need help, have a look at our services. Makes it really easy.

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Hendie
We are in the same boat. I would like to know if we can open an SA bank account from here for our RA's.

CashKows has this one covered. They have an arrangement with two of the major banks in South Africa that allows you to extract your RA funds without actually having to open an account in South Africa. Quite clever I think! :blink:

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Guest Barbara

Happy to say we got our RAs out of SA. Even mine and I am not yet 55. The money was wired to our Canadian bank this week. Another door closes.

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Dawn

So glad that you managed to get it all out without any trouble. :)

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Harry

In January 2014 I made the decision to pull all my annuities out of South Africa.

As others have explained, the change in legislation in late 2007 allows properly financially emigrated individuals to withdraw all their annuity funds as a single lump sum ; none of this "30% lump sum plus pension" nonsense.

However, here is the bit you need to know, and which I have now found out the hard way. When all is said and done, it is a process that will not take less than 2 months and is likely to drive you hysterical at several points:

A. You need to have a blocked account with a bank in South Africa. I do not know which banks all do that. Certainly, Nedbank does. You need to appreciate that you are totally and utterly in their hands. You cannot withdraw money from that account by yourself. It can only happen via the control of the bank. They will open an account for you over the internet, but only after receiving original and certified documents via courier, which will set you back a serious amount in fees. You will also need to deposit a minimum of R1000 in that account. I tested Worldremit for this purpose and it worked just fine after some teething troubles related to the structure of SA transfer codes.

B. Below R75,000, the problem is simple and far fewer questions are asked. One of my policies was below R75,000 was quickly and simply transferred into that blocked account. The limit for that quick process is R75,000. Above that number, stasis sets in and any motion is a story from a nightmare. I forget how many times I "lost it" completely in this process. By the time you have finished, you will have come to the conclusion, as I have, that South Africa is now manned largely by people whose role in life is specifically to turn your life into hell.

STEP 1: Apply to revenue Canada for a Tax Residence Certificate two months before you want the money moved. They take six weeks to get you this, by their own admission.

You will be going nowhere without that. Believe me, I tried everything. All firms who at first accepted every manner of other evidence of residence came back later and reversed their positions to demand a Revenue Canada-issued Tax Residence Certificate. I eventually mailed the one party an e-mail stating that "it is clear that my own dead body, nailed upside down to my kitchen wall with my 2012 Tax return in my dead mouth; with my dental records, fingerprints, and last month's utility bill in my gatsak and my drivers licence between my rigid toes would not be acceptable evidence". They at least exhibited a sense of humour by returning an e-mail with a smiley.

STEP 2: Get hold of your SARS Tax Clearance Certificate from when you originally EMIGRATED FINANCIALLY. Very few people, if any, emigrate financially at the same time as physically. If you do not have that, they are supposed to accept an affidavit to the effect that you emigrated legitimately more than some or other time before (typically more than 5 years). However, South Africa being South Africa, they will send you and silly message to the effect that you have to have the affidavit certified by your local Mounties Office(!!). Be my guest - try that, and suffer the laughter for yourself. You'll have to figure out some other form of certification. If you're lucky, a bank certified affidavit will do, but more likely you'll end up paying Notary Public $80 to do it. I have suffered weeks to trace my original proper Tax Clearance Certificate and I'm still trying to get one of three remaining annuity firms to accept that, despite it being the original SARS document(!!). You may end up having to supply the IT21(a) form that you originally filled in to get the Tax Clearance Certificate in the first place.

STEP 3: Be sure to get hold of your original South African Tax reference number. You'll find that on your old SARS tax returns.

NOTE: You'll notice that, amazingly, the two steps above are demanded by SARS, yet they are exactly the party that has the information to start with!! Nevertheless, you'll have to dig through your old boxes of stuff, or get hold of your tax consultant from 11 years ago as I have had to do. They keep good records; way better than the banks. Mine still had my SARS Tax Clearance Certificate. The bank to whom it had been sent for the original emigration, simply would not get it for me from their archives.

STEP 4: Each of the annuity firms has its own company forms that they love having filled in for this withdrawal. They may want a recent utility bill, and a copy of your Passport or ID book, but the centrepiece of the documentation is the withdrawal form, backed up with the Tax Clearance Certificate and the Tax Certificate of Residence.

STATUS: I am now at the point where all I owe three Annuity firms is the Canadian Tax residence Certificate, for which I am likely to have to wait three more weeks. One of those firms is still giving me a tough time on the matter of the Tax Clearance Certificate, but the other two have accepted my old 2003 certificate. OR, at least, they have sent it to SARS.

I'll eventually close the loop here to report. If I don't, check the newspapers for a short grey ex-South African who jumped off the Second Narrows Bridge screaming his head off.

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kodacat

If you use CashKows like we did, you would have no stress at all. It was well worth paying them a fee to do everything (and more) that you are doing.

It took 3 months from start to finish to get our RA's out.

Edited by kodacat

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Guest Petros

I would tend to agree with Koda cat- in these matters its best to use the pro's. After I read Harry's pains I would not travel down that road alone.

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canuck nick

I still had my Nedbank non-res account and had all the necessary SARS tax documents to get my RA out. I waited 8 weeks to get my Certificate of Residency from CRA and then mailed it to my broker in SA as the last document he was waiting for.

Old Mutual were satisfied with my first tax clearance cert from SARS and they did not ask me to provide a newer one.

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Tracey22

We decided to financially emigrate when we left SA, and Old Mutual were the onyl ones who hassled us. Horror story heard - a cousin emigrated to Australia in the 80s and and sneaked their money out of SA in various ways. A grandparent dies, and they were given an inheritance. SARS opened up a case against them. In the end, the family had to pay a penalty for taking out funds in excess of what was legally allowed in those days (a lot less than now for sure). Then they could take the inheritance out of the country.

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Harry

I can report that the Canada Revenue Tax Residence Certificate arrived today.

For the life of me I see no use to it other than that it "deems" me resident in Canada because it has not received a change of address notification since my 2012 tax return filed in 2013.

Perhaps this is treated as a licence among revenue agencies of countries as to who has "first call" on one's money. In the absence of this licence concept, it remains a mind-boggling mystery how on earth this beats my last month's utility bill or bank manager's or doctor's statement as evidence of my presence in Canada.

I looked at Cashkows exactly two years ago, but the picture would simply not gel for me. Perhaps they could change their name to something more appropriate so as to not completely put off people like me to start with. I find such a name drastically problematic to take seriously, considering what is at stake for the client. Given the number of sharks that beset us in the matter of money when we left, my distrust RADAR switched permanently to hyperdrive. I have no idea why they would consider it a smart business plan to first put people off with a name choice that was completely within their own domain to make, and then face having to rewin the trust of the prospective clients.

When my wife then went through some of this process, she did not suffer 1/10th of the abuse and frustration that I have suffered in the last two months, but it was still more than she could take. We had no way of knowing how extreme the anguish was that lay in wait.

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PamC

Hi! Any help on this would be appreciated. I'm trying to have an Investec Retirement Annuity paid out (I'm younger than 40 and am a permanent resident in Canada). My South African Accountant tells me that Investec needs to complete an online tax directive request and then SARS will issue a tax directive to me, after which time Investec can pay out my RA and my tax to SARS. However, Investec claims that they need an FI002 form (which my Accountant must apparently get for them from SARS). Do you know what I need to get from SARS to get my RA paid out to me by Investec? Thanks in advance for any advice!

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Tracey22

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PamC

Thanks Tracey22!

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canuck nick

A copy of your tax clearance certificate from SARS when you departed SA and proof of your PR. You may also need a certificate of residency from CRA, which takes about 2 weeks to issue. Phone CRA and just ask for it, they issue these regularly.

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PamC

Super, thanks so much. Sadly I've given them all of that (listed in Canuck Nick's post) am am now trying with a form called the FI002. Seems Investec doesn't know what they need before they can pay out an RA (which is unacceptable) so my broker has now referred this to Investec's legal department. Hopefully they get me an answer! Thanks again for responses.

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Hendie

I looked at Cashkows exactly two years ago, but the picture would simply not gel for me. Perhaps they could change their name to something more appropriate so as to not completely put off people like me to start with. I find such a name drastically problematic to take seriously, considering what is at stake for the client. Given the number of sharks that beset us in the matter of money when we left, my distrust RADAR switched permanently to hyperdrive. I have no idea why they would consider it a smart business plan to first put people off with a name choice that was completely within their own domain to make, and then face having to rewin the trust of the prospective clients.

Harry, we used CashKows a couple of years ago to get our funds out. They delivered exemplary service, we were very happy with how they made the whole process simple for us. I also mentioned to them that their name looks a little suspect - I wonder how many people simply pass them over for that very reason ..

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Harry

I can report that, after supplying three leading SA annuity firms with identical information to pass to SARS, one of them cleared a major amount within 6 days with no problems. They received a Tax Certificate of Residence (TCR) from me on 21 March 2013 ( see above) and paid out the money on 27 March. The other two received that same TCR on the very same day.

One of them let me know yesterday (76 days later) that they failed in their efforts. The other one is still silent. They had all received the required Tax Clearance Certificate some time earlier. The one responding yesterday simply repeated that they need the Tax Clearance Certificate and the TCR ; this after I had already provided it all by 21 March. It is as good as communicating with a wall.

The brain is numbed trying to fathom what is wrong with these people. Perhaps I have forgotten just how incredibly incompetent South Africans can act when they are actually being willful.... and I certainly believe them to be willful, since no-one could conceivably be this incompetent and yet manage to feed themselves or tie their own shoelaces.

In conclusion.... YES... use Cashkows. I have not yet done so, but will now. I have no idea how bad they may be or how good they are, but some here swear by them. Certainly, Nothing can be worse than what has happened to me so far. It is certified to drive a sensible person hysterical.

The Second Narrows bridge is looking more and more appealing by the day.

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