Brett

Dual Citizenship

Recommended Posts

Merv

This is the response I got back from that address :P

Please advise what the name of the form is or it's purpose so we can see if it is available through the HC.

Regards.

Consular Section

----- Original Message -----

From: "South African High Commission" <rsafrica[at]southafrica-canada.ca>

To: "lillian" <admin[at]southafrica-canada.ca>

Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 9:35 AM

Subject: FW: Form BI-246

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frozone

Hi guys, I have been playing with the idea of going to Canada for a while but for various reasons I am slowly comming to the conclusion that I may have to consider other options. One of the other options is the Netherlands.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this but I couldn't find a decent forum like SaCanada that deals with the Netherlands, but I figured you guys would know anyway.

The Netherlands don't allow dual citizenship, which means that if I want to live there and become a citizen, I would have to give up my SA citizenship.

But I'm wondering what that means exactly. Would that mean that any bank accounts, potential inheritance or something else that is really important would be lost to me?

What rights are lost when you loose or give up your citizenship?

BTW I did find a similar post on SaAustralia but that thread didn't really answer any of my questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
johankok

I am not so sure about the dual citizenship as I knew a load of Dutch that had both SA and Dutch citizenships. Their advantage was the ability to live in SA until they were 50? then returned to the Netherlands to obtain their right to pension.

THe best way is to leave here as a person who is going to work for a while in the Netherlands. AFAIK, you have to live there for 2 years before becoming a citizen. Thus you have that period to decide on what to do.

When you formally renounce your citizenship (or announce intention to emigrate), then the banks would "put your accounts on hold" - all liquid financial assets could be frozen, until all debts are settled. You will have to apply to take anything out.

Thus far you would not loose any properties, but no promises for the future. Any other forms of investmet still stay yours. Any creditors that has a claim could actually push for settlement when you announce that you are emigrating.

Shoot if you have more questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sangoma

Frozone...

The formal policy of Germany is also not to allow dual citizenship. However I know many Germans (including myself) who have managed to obtain dual(even tri) citizenship. The solution sadly, and unsuprisingly is: $$$$$$.

Edited by Sangoma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frozone

Thanks Johan and Sangoma, I really appreciate the help.

Johan, regarding the frozen accounts. You said that you have to apply to take anything out after it is frozen. Do you have a timeline on this? Or a link where I can read more?

I also plan to settle all debts before I move, would my acounts still be frozen?

And investments? Because if you want to sell, say, shares or unit trusts you have to supply an ID number or passport number. Are these still valid when you loose citizenship? If not, how would a person sell these, perhaps with your new, foreign passport? And inheritance? It seems like you could stand to loose quite a lot if you renounce your citizenship.

Sorry for the questions, I just want to know what I stand to loose if I choose this.

And Sangome, I doubt my piggy bank will allow for goverment "bribes" :rolleyes: for duel citizenship. Anyway, I'm not sure I really want my SA citizenship if it is not absolutely needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sangoma
And Sangoma, I doubt my piggy bank will allow for goverment "bribes" :D for duel citizenship. Anyway, I'm not sure I really want my SA citizenship if it is not absolutely needed.

Frozone... no bribes here..we dont live in SA :cowboy: . Knowing people, and knowing people who know people is very important in Canada. :rolleyes:

I would suggest contacting the Dutch embassy/consulate directly when you get to Canada. The ambassador may have the right to approve dual citizenship under certain specific scenarios...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jack

As dit al hier bespreek as vra ek verskoning, maar soos ons nou maar is, leen mens mos baie jou ore uit in die immigrasie prses. Oa'e vertel almal mos die voor en nadele van "Dual Citizenship" en hoe Kanada nou kwansuis nie gaan help as jy wat 'n dual citizen is dan nou in 'n "slegte situasie" beland iewers, hetsy in jou land van herkoms of in enige ander land nie, or jy dan nou kwansuis sou durf verkies om dual citizen te wees en nie net Kanadese burger nie.

Hier is die web site wat dit verduidelik en die stelling maar einlik as onsin bewys

Dual Citizenship

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harry

Jack,

dis al bespreek tot het einde van het Aarde.

Problem is, the Canadian and SA requirements clash. Canada advises you to enter SA on a Canadian passport, and SA could throw you in jail for doing it. Some of our members have already had problems.

SA requires a dual citizenship person to enter SA on his/her SA passport and to then fall 100% under SA law and fulfiull his/her SA obligations.

So I just do not go there.

This issue is NOT a simple one.

My best advice is, under no circumstances should you apply for dual citizenship. It will haunt you. Ask me...I made the mistake and I regret it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ann

I really can't see any advantage in having dual citizenship. When I considered the question I decided that I couldn't think of a country that I might wish to visit that would accept a SA passport more readily than a Canadian passport.

Why make your life difficult, i.e. having to maintain two passports and being careful to be sure that you only present your SA passport in South Africa. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fatcat

Hi Everyone

So glad this topic has come up AGAIN, we have our citizenship ceremony next Wednesday :lol: and will be applying for our Canadian passports straight away. We don't intend applying for dual citizenship, do we need to officially let SA Home Affairs know our intentions or do we just say nothing and let our SA passports expire. We do not plan on visiting SA but still have my parents there so will never say never. At this stage the plan is that they will visit us. I know this question has been asked before and I have scanned through previous discussions but don' see that this has been answered.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harry

Fatcat,

you say nothing and you carry on with your life.

Idiots like me were talked into actively applying for dual citizenship. As a result, they now have me on a list as dual citizen. So, when I try to enter SA on a Canadian passport, so as to have the protection of a First World Country while travelling in Darkest Africa, the SA government will want to know why I am not entering on an SA one as an SA citizen, and then they'll turn my life into hell.

It will not be the black man or black lady at the counter that will do it. They could not actually care less. It will be the white female in the office behind who is mad at me because SHE cannot leave SA. She will take it out on me. And she has enormous power in this process.

In fact, the new law down there says that your SA citizenship cannot be taken away from you. SO, why would you have to apply for the right to keep it? When you take Canadian citizenship you assume you are now a Canadian citizen. When you travel to SA you enter the country on a Canadian passport because Canada is the only country you believe yourself to be a citizen of.

I, the idiot who ACTIVELY applied to be a citizen of both, am stuck with the darned paper trail I created. In fact, the only way I can get out of this darned mess is to ACTIVELY RENOUNCE my SA citizenship....and yes, I asked them for the forms and they sent it. You do not have the mess, because you were never idiot enough to insist on recording officially that you want to keep your SA citizenship.

NOW, with the benefit of the above, will anyone look me in the eye and give me ONE SINGLE REASON why folks should apply for dual citizenship?

Could be I am missing something...so feel free to take my picture apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hendie

Harry, kan jy nie jou SA burgerskap "renounce" nie? Dit moet tog sekerlik moontlik wees?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harry

Dis wat ek gesê het hierbo, Hennerik! Ek het die vorms.

Ek is fedup omdat ek dit nou spesefiek moet "renounce". As my vrou geluister het na my, en die dubbele burgerskap storie verdomp in die eerste plek uitgelos het, het ons nou minder nonsens gehad.

Nou probeer ek ander mense die geneuk spaar deur hulle te waarsku om weg te bly van aansoek doen om dubbele burgerskap. As 'n mens nooit jou burgerskap van SA outomaties verloor nie, hoekom moet jy aansoek doen om dit te behou...die mos ooglopened onlogies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CharleneK

Aish, I've said it before, but no-one listens!. You do not retain your SA citizenship when you accept another country's, unless you apply to. From the South Africa Home Affairs web site:

"Loss of South African Citizenship (Section 6)

A South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship.

Retention of South African citizenship may, however, be applied for, but must be done and be approved before acquisition of the other citizenship to prevent automatic loss of the South African citizenship. Applications must be on form BI 1664 and are subject to payment of a prescribed fee of R115-00. Applications may be lodged at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Embassy or Mission.

Persons who have lost their South African citizenship under similar circumstances under section 15(1)(a) of the now repealed South African Citizenship Act, 1949 (Act No. 44 of 1949), may apply for exemption from the loss in terms of section 26(4) of Act 88 of 1995, by submission of a duly completed BI 1666 and payment of the prescribed fee of R115-00 at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Mission or Embassy."

Charlene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snoepie

"en hoe Kanada nou kwansuis nie gaan help as jy wat 'n dual citizen is dan nou in 'n "slegte situasie" beland iewers, hetsy in jou land van herkoms of in enige ander land nie, or jy dan nou kwansuis sou durf verkies om dual citizen te wees en nie net Kanadese burger nie."

Kanada het onlangs weer met die oproer, was dit in Lebanon, nou n paar maande gelede?, klomp vliegtuie gestuur en almal wat wou uit en wat Kanadese burgerskap het, opgelaai en "huistoe" gebring, op groot onkoste. So ver sorre onse nuwe land mooi. So moenie dat almal wat mens tog so kan afraai van Kanada toe kom en dan later burgerskap aanvaar, vir jou met dai sob storie vang nie. Soos ons almal weet is meeste van die wat inderhaas daar uit is, weer intussen sak en pak terug, hier is praatjies nou dat dual citizenship kan verval in die jare wat kom, juis as gevolg van wat onlangs gebeur het. Het dai trippie dan nie ons as belasting betalers iets soos $ 57 miljoen gekos nie? Wat my en my huis betref, het ons regtig nie meer n saak met n SA paspoort nie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tigs

Well, I have had dual citizenship for years - RSA/UK without any trouble whatsoever. My daughters were entitled to become British Citizens through my citizenship which we subsequently did. The good old green passport is not worth the paper it is printed on unless you are travelling in the Middle East where everyone suddenly becomes your friend. They know my daughters have dual citizenship as on renewal of their SA passports, my better half ticked the box that asks that specific question about citizenship of another country and gave the details, I cursed as like Harry, I feel the less they know the better. We have never applied for retention of their SA citizenship and in fact know only about this issue from Charlene's post above.

We did so much travelling into and out of SA for several years that they went through 2 SA passports each and there was never any question upon renewal or at the border crossings/airports. When asked only one time - that guy actually paged through the passports - why there where mainly only entry and exit stamps for SA in their SA passorts we stated that they used other passports elsewhere on our travels and no eyebrows were ever raised. We renewed my eldest's SA passort last year in SA again without a hitch and in fact had left her SA Birth Certificate in Canada and they were quite happy with just her SA passport as enough proof of citizenship when I told them that we were living in Canada and had left the birth certificate behind.

If they enforce that ruling as stated under section 6, it will likely be as Harry puts it, by some vindictive swine on duty that day or to suit some other particular agenda at that moment and not as a blanket ruling on all. But for those who have decided to leave SA for good, settle in another country and become citizens of that country, no more property/bank accounts/ties in SA and only to return possibly on the odd holiday, why keep SA citizenship anyway, it is of no real value.

Tigs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
elcycad

I have been sitting with my Canadian citizenship forms all filled out for the past 2 years and the only thing that hindered my submission of the said forms was the fact that one had to apply for the retention of one's SA citizenship before applying for Canadian citizenship. Then also the fact that all the documents that go along with the application for SA citizenship has to be certified and the difficuly in obtaining a commissioner of oaths to do so has contributed to my delinquency in applying for Canadian citizenship.

My SA passport only expires in 2010 and I guess I have untill then to get any remaining money out of SA. If I became a Canadian citizen...Go to SA ...Get the money out using my SA passport...is there any way they can tell if I have Canadian citizenship? :lol:

Once again I am grateful for the immense knowledge in this forum :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tigs

OK, This is from the Act as published on the Home Affairs website.

Link is: http://home-affairs.pwv.gov.za/documents/s...ip_act_1995.htm

CHAPTER 3

Loss of South African Citizenship

Loss of citizenship

6. (1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2), a South African citizen shall cease to be a South African citizen if-

(a) he or she, whilst not being a minor, by some voluntary and formal act other than marriage, acquires the citizenship or nationality of a country other than the Republic; or

This means that as minors, my kids did not automatically lose their SA citizenship when they took up their British citizenship. Maybe thats why they never hassle them. As for me, in the old days I had to apply to the Minister for permission to use the passport of a foreign country, I still have the original signed document giving me permission.

kcmorgan, if you dont tell them I doubt they will ever know that you became a Canadian citizen, unless National Intelligence has its eye on you. :lol:

Tigs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harry

Charlene,

the section you quote is not the whole story. Go look at Caroline & Peter's post :

They quote the Home Affairs site...but read the whole thing until you get the bit that says:

A person who has lost or has been deprived of his or her South African citizenship may apply for resumption at any Home Affairs domestic office. Application must be on a BI 175 and a prescribed fee of R115-00 is payable.

In a nutshell, the government's own website conrtradicts itself...always assuming that the Department of Home Affais understands the meaning of the word "contradicts".

About the only thing that seems clear to me is that, if I have renounced my SA citizenship, then I have renounced it. That, presumably, is permanent and irrevocable. SO, having got dual citizenship, I am now b#ggered. If I had done nothing, I could have entered SA on a Canadian passport instead of an SA one. However, since I am now still an SA citizen I have to now enter SA on an SA passport. Should I enter on a Canadian one, I face possible imprisonment in an African jail.

If I went to SA on a SA Passport, I would have to have a helluva nerve to ask Canada to get me out of there. To get that support I should travel on a Canadian passport as a Canadian citizen.

My answer is therefore still the exactly the same: Ignore SA. Get your Canadian passport. Travel to SA on your Canadian passport. If SA goes to hell, ask Canada to get you out of there, as you have travelled there on a Canadian passport.

AND

One day, if you REALLY want to go back to SA, insist on your Constitutional right to have your citizenship reinstated ( As per Caroline & Peter's post)....so maybe that takes 6 months...that's nothin like the 6 years it took me to get my infinitely more precious and protective Canadian citizenship.

Please.....FAULT MY LOGIC....or give me a place where the SA Government makes things emphatically and irrevocably CLEAR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CharleneK

Harry, I'm fully aware of Carol and Peter's post and the rest of the Act. What I was referring to, was the urban legend that was making the rounds last year that, unless you officially renounce your SA citizenship, you will retain it "by default" if you obtain another citizenship.

That is, of course, not true. If you accept any other citizenship, you automatically lose your SA citizenship, unless you have applied to retain it before accepting the second citizenship. The new citizenship Act did not change that. The only thing it changed, was the punishment the SA goverment could mete out if they caught a dual citizen using his "other" passport to enter SA.

Whereas before the Act changed, they could revoke the SA portion of your citizenship, they can now only fine (or jail) you.

If you don't want dual citizenship, then just do nothing. If you do, apply for it before you pledge allegiance to any royalty.

Charlene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harry

There you have it...the combination of the two issues, as presented by Charlene on the one hand and (Harry)& (Carol & Peter) on the other.

The matter of SA Citizenship is best described as:

"now you see it ( before you apply for Canadian citizenship) .....

and now you don't ( if you DO apply for Canadian citizenship and get it without asking to keep SA citizenship)......

and thenwhaddayaknow, (if you ask nicely and pay a fee) you see it again".

To summarise:

  1. If you get Canadian citizenship, you automatically lose ("lose") SA citizenship( for now)
  2. You can apply to keep your SA citizenship, by paying a fee and applying properly before the Canadian application goes in. That way you end up with dual citizenship.
  3. If you DO GET that dual citizenship, you MUST enter SA on an SA Passport and be subject to all SA laws and obligations as a citizen ( that is Thabo tells you what to do). You can decide whether you'll have faith that Canada will help you if you get into problems in that particular African country.
  4. If you DO GET that dual citizenship and you enter SA under the protection of a Canadian passport, South Africa can throw you into its African jail where you can have a jolly old time along with the other inmates, who, of course, just love you to death, given their demographic. You can decide whether you'll have faith that Canada will help you if you get into problems in that particular African country.
  5. If you have lost/forfeited your SA Citizenship ( presumably including by applying for Canadian citizenship), you can always subsequently apply to have it reinstated. It takes a while, but nothing like the 6 years to get Canadian citizenship (as measured from applying for a Canadian PRV)
  6. It is possible to formally renounce your SA citizenship if you have dual citizenship and i have posted the forms here before.
  7. I suspect, but do not know for a 100% fact, that you have no way back if you have renounced your citizenship. It seems improbable that one can un-renounce it.

------------------

And still my conclusions remain the same:

  1. Do not apply for dual citizenship, because while it LOOKS LIKE keeping your options open, it actually does the exact opposite.
  2. If you DO have dual citizenship, think really carefully about how you go to SA and what passport you use. Some of our members have already had trouble.
  3. If you want the full protection of Canada, you should travel on a Canadian passport. To be able to do that when visiting South Africa, you cannot have dual citizenship.

I quote the Canadian CIC:

If a Canadian has legal or other difficulties outside the country, Canadian diplomatic and consular representatives in that country can try to help. However, if the Canadian in difficulty in another country is also a citizen of that country, Canadian officials may be entirely unable to help. That country will be dealing with one of its own citizens and probably will not welcome “outside interference.” Indeed, foreign authorities will definitely consider you as one of their citizens, especially if you choose to travel under their passport
. Read that link and then think for yourself.

What we still have some unclarity on, is:

  1. how exactly does one get SA citizenship reinstated if one lost it due to applying for Canadian citizenship
  2. can one get one's SA citizenship reinstated at all if one has actively renounced it?

Maybe folks who have gone through this can tell us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
boeg

A most elegant summation, Sir Harry! :)

My previous attitude was:"What is the harm of having dual citizenship?".

Thank you for pertinently summing up the dangers of retaining a South African passport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CharleneK

Yep, Harry, that just about says it all.

Charlene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sunshine
MMMM, interesting wonder how the repealed law would effect the Img Border control act, in reference to yachts and crew?

Seems the law on immagration have been simplified to accomedate as stated, fiscal generation, and monitoring of travelling by ZA citizens,

Pat

Very Interesting where things are going.....

I became a Canadian Citizen in 1977,and yes I needed a passport to travel with my then husband all over the world,and it became clear to me that is were much easier on a Canadian Passport...and yes the South African Embassy told me then at that time that I could not have duel citizenship without getting permission from the minister of home affairs...

I went home 5 years ago and then had to get the 3rd degree at Johannesburg airport because my Canadian passport still clarified that I were born in South Africa???Oh I see South Africa isnt good enough for you??so the reason for your visit??and yes I went for my dads funural......I really felt bad after that comment....

Does it really matter to have that info on your passport??cant we just leave it blank???lol

Does this mean that all South AFRICANS that have Canadian Passports right now has to apply for another South African Passport???If you stuck between 2 countries you will have to deal with both???

And usually the place where you were born get preference???think about it...

I tried to renew my Canadian Passport,and with the new rules about 911 and even with the compassionate

rule it would take a week...because they needed after 23 years being here my South African birth certificate??along the way it got lost.....

Needless to say I could not make it back for my moms funeral.....

I never thought that she will leave in 3 days......so the lesson is to keep that passport going at all times....because you never know when something like this would happen right?

at least I had a good conversation with her the week before.....and that helps a lot...

So my question is which way do we go??

Susan>>>>>

oops Sorry,

Just read your post Harry and that cleared up my questions,

Thanks,

Susan....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matisse
I tried to renew my Canadian Passport,and with the new rules about 911 and even with the compassionate

rule it would take a week...because they needed after 23 years being here my South African birth certificate??along the way it got lost.....

Huh, they want to see your South African birth certificate whenever you renew your Canadian passport? But you are a Canadian citizen now?! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now