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Hendie

Dubbele Burgerskap-Dual Citizenship

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Harry

Renouncing SA Citizenship

Since the SA government insists on having folks with dual citizenship enter SA on their SA passports, thereby forfeiting the protection of Canada, I got hold of the SA embassy in Ottawa and asked them what is involved in actively getting rid of SA citizenship. They faxed me the attached ( skew as you see them):

Documents

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Ann

Yikes, I am as confused as a chameleon on a Smartie box. I became a Canadian Citizen in 1999 when by default one lost South African citizenship unless applying for dual citizenship before acquiring Canadian citizenship.

Since then they changed their minds and changed the Act to say that you don't automatically lose South African citizenship when you acquire citizenship of another country. Is it retroactive, i.e. am I suddenly assumed to be a SA citizen again, even if I don't want to be. :) I wouldn't want to go back for a holiday on a Canadian passport and be hassled at the SA airport. As I was born in Rhodesia, which is reflected on my passport, what could make them think that I am still a SA citizen. :P

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BevBrad

Does this mean that I will retain my SA citizenship unless I actually renounce it even if I have obtained Canadian citizenship without informing the SA Govn. ?

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Harry

Guys,

please go read this whole thread. There was a huge performance some time ago when the SA government said that you cannot just lose your citizenship automatically because that would be "anti-constitutional". Of course, at the very same time they insisted that you use your SA Passport to enter SA. On the face of it, it all looks sensible, until you think through what it ACTUALLY MEANS. We had a huge thing here about it and digin clarified. Since then the major challenge has not been how to get double citizenship, but how to get rid of your SA citizenship.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I prefer to be protected by Canada when I am in SA, because I sure as hell do not feel the SA government has my interests at heart.

This is the single big reason I have not ever been back there. If I go there, it will be as a Canadian...PERIOD!!

SO:

1. To be ALLOWED by the SA government to have double citizenship, you have to ask them pretty please.

2. You cannot lose your SA Citizenship automatically anyway

3. You have to use an SA Passport to enter SA

4. This means you have to go through the performance of renewing it every now and then

5. In my book the question is therefore 100% obvious: "How do I GET RID OF SA citizenship"...because it endangers me, is a liability and a limitation on my life, and appears to stick like the proverbial in a woollen blanket.

.....SO I ASKED THE QUESTION.

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Lorrett

I completed and submitted the form to renounce my SA citizenship last year June, with it I had to send my SA passport, ID book and copy of my birth certificate. As I was going to SA in September I asked Ottawa for a letter stating that I had "applied" to renounce my SA citizenship and that I did not have a SA passport anymore. To date I have only received the requested letter. I have not heard anything from the SA goverment yet. I phoned Ottawa 2 weeks ago and they said they will look into it and let me know...... I only hope my "stuff" has not been lost! :cry:;)

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Guest Barbara

Ant we have the same thing my place of birth was Zimbabwe. So it would say that in my Canadian passport.

A friend just went back now on their Canadian passports and they don’t have their place of birth in their passports. They never had any problem at the airport going in or out.

I am told it is an option not to have your place of birth on your passport. Not sure though.

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Caroline&Peter

Hi folks

I have followed the thread as much as I can (can't speak africaans)...so I looked up on the SA home affairs web site. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick and this could have been covered before? Or maybe the site is not updated ;) I have 'bolded' the part about 'loss of citizenship'. I aquired my SA passport in 2000 and was told that irrespective of dual citizenship-when it comes to SA passports the South African Homeaffairs will decided how and what (by the SA Embassy in Oslo)But anyway... here goes:

Deprivation of South African Citizenship

Section 8 empowers the Minister to revoke the South African citizenship of a South African citizen by naturalisation if the certificate of naturalisation was obtained by means of fraud, false representation or the concealment of a material fact (Section 8(1)a, or if the certificate was issued in conflict with the provisions of the Act, or any prior law (Section 8(1)b and in the case of a South African dual citizen, if the citizen has been sentenced to imprisonment for 12 months or more (Section 8(2)a, or if the Minister is satisfied that revocation is in the public interest (Section 8(2)b.

Section 9 which regulated the deprivation of South African citizenship in instances where a major South African had made use of the citizenship or nationality of another country was repealed on 15 September 2004 by the South African Citizenship Amendment Act, 2004 (Act No. 17 of 2004) and replaced with the following sanction:

“A major citizen who-

(a)enters the Republic or departs from the Republic making use of the passport of another country; or

(b)while in the Republic, makes use of his or her citizenship or nationality of another country in order to gain an advantage or avoid a responsibility or duty is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding 12 months.”.

In essence, the act repealed the provision which allowed the Minister of Home Affairs to deprive a citizen of his or her citizenship for having used the citizenship of a foreign country. Consequently, the previous requirement for exemptions or letters of permission from the Minister to make use of a foreign passport has now been terminated. The issue of deprivation of citizenship was inconsistent with the Constitutional right to citizenship.

In terms of the South African Citizenship Amendment Act of 2004, which came into effect on 15 September 2004, it is now an offence for a major South African citizen to enter the Republic or depart making use of the passport of another country.

Furthermore, it is also now an offence for such a citizen, while in South Africa, to use his or her foreign citizenship or nationality to gain advantage or avoid a responsibility or duty.

Essentially, the Amendment Act provides that a South African citizen, who has dual citizenship or nationality, can freely use his or her foreign passport outside South Africa. However, they must use their South African passport to depart from or enter South Africa.

The Department has received a number of enquiries from our ports of entry on whether or not South African citizens who arrive at border posts with foreign passports may be refused to enter or depart from the Republic.

The Department is obliged to implement the Citizenship Amendment Act. However, we acknowledge that many affected South Africans may not yet be aware of the amendments to the Citizenship Act and the implications for themselves.

We have therefore decided that affected South Africans departing or arriving through our ports of entry, attempting to use a foreign passport, will be issued with a warning giving them three months to obtain a South African passport. They will be allowed to depart or enter South Africa.

Accordingly, we would like to advise all South Africans who have dual citizenship and do not have South African passports to apply for their South African passports at their earliest opportunity.

Loss of South African Citizenship (Section 6)

A South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship.

Retention of South African citizenship may, however, be applied for, but must be done and be approved before acquisition of the other citizenship to prevent automatic loss of the South African citizenship. Applications must be on form BI 1664 and are subject to payment of a prescribed fee of R115-00. Applications may be lodged at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Embassy or Mission.

Persons who have lost their South African citizenship under similar circumstances under section 15(1)(a) of the now repealed South African Citizenship Act, 1949 (Act No. 44 of 1949), may apply for exemption from the loss in terms of section 26(4) of Act 88 of 1995, by submission of a duly completed BI 1666 and payment of the prescribed fee of R115-00 at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Mission or Embassy.

Resumption (Section 13)

A person who has lost or has been deprived of his or her South African citizenship may apply for resumption at any Home Affairs domestic office. Application must be on a BI 175 and a prescribed fee of R115-00 is payable.

To qualify, former South African citizens by birth and descent must have returned to South Africa permanently. Former South Africans by naturalisation or registration must have a valid permanent residence permit or exemption from such permit and must have taken up permanent residence in South Africa.

Renunciation (Section 7)

A South African citizen who intends to accept the citizenship or nationality of another country, or who also has the citizenship or nationality of another country, may renounce his or her South African citizenship by making a declaration to that effect on a form BI 246 and submit the completed declaration to any Home Affairs domestic office.

The person shall cease to be a South African citizen from the moment the declaration is registered in the Department.

The minor children under 18 years of a person who has renounced his or her South African citizenship shall also cease to be South African citizens, unless the other parent remains a South African citizen.

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Robert McGee

Harry, it seems that you and I are in the same boat on this one. What confuses me is the following:

Loss of South African Citizenship (Section 6)

A South African citizen (major) who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship.

This is from digin's post #49 and Caroline&Peter"s post above and seems to be the current legislation. This situation describes me (and I assume you too). Why would you then still need to renuntiate you SA citizenship? According to the above, you are automatically not a SA citizen anymore.

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Harry

Robert,

Two things:

1. I cannot get that particular clause to make sense in view of the stuff said earlier in the same Act. Maybe you can. If so, lay it out for me. I am still under the impression that, even if you got Canadian citizenship, you will still be lumbered with SA citizenship. Maybe they wrote the act up from the point of view that SA citizenship is in demand and thereby botched the clarity.

2. My wife insisted on us getting dual citizenship and I objected all the way there. Here we now have the consequence of that decision...I refuse to go to SA on an SA passport...period! I am lumbered with a poisoned albatross around my neck...and I hate every second of it.

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Hendie

This issue is quite unclear to me too. I think we should call on our hallowed immigration lawyers to shed some light on this issue ... NICO, COBUS!!!!

Harry, when we travelled to South Africa at the end of 2004, we did so on our Canadian passports; left the South African ones in Calgary (the kids' had expired anyway). We had no problems in either South Africa or Namibia. I have to add though that we didn't get into a situation where we needed to call on our Canadian embassy to "rescue" us from any hanky panky, so I cannot say what would have happened if we had to - I assume that is what you have issue with?

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Harry

Hendie,

When I travel anywhere on Earth, I want the protection of a proper Western government. If taking Canadian citizenship does NOT automatically lose one one's SA Citizenship, then those who left SA and simply took Canadian citizenship can potentially face a Harar type of situation. We all know what happened there...SEVERE Hanky Panky.

My own situation was unnecessarily and totally avoidably complicated by us keeping SA citizenship. Hence I set about finding out what I have to do to be actively rid of it for the above reason. I'm not the only one on SACanada with that situation. I've had the question before, so I thought I'd post the Embassy answer.

There is a clear lapse in logic somwehere: If

1. one can always get one's SA citizenship back when you want it (even if it is dual), and

2. you autmotically lose it when you get another citizenship.

... then the obvious thing is to

a] just get the other citizenship and

b] NOT take dual citizenship, and

c] ask the SA government for your citizenship back when you one day want it, for whatever reason.

What conceivable merit could there be in having dual citizenship under such circumstances. The logic eludes me utterly.

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Caroline&Peter

I agree with you Harry- clear laps in logic. Unless they are trying to use it as a method to generate revenue? I was thinking.... if the HA department is so 'busy' that it takes 12 months to get an unabridged birth certificate (we were told this yesterday by ALLDOX) then how long would it take to have your citizenship 'resumpted'? Would you have to have a work visa etc in the mean time if you want to return to SA?And if South Africans have lost their SA citizenship then they have to pay for visa's to 'stay' in SA. Do you pay for a SA visa when you have a Canadian passport?

So I can't help but wonder how much money is involved in this whole exercise.

AHA :o conspiracy theory....maybe I'm just going overboard... :D

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Guest User Name
I agree with you Harry- clear laps in logic. Unless they are trying to use it as a method to generate revenue? I was thinking.... if the HA department is so 'busy' that it takes 12 months to get an unabridged birth certificate (we were told this yesterday by ALLDOX) then how long would it take to have your citizenship 'resumpted'? Would you have to have a work visa etc in the mean time if you want to return to SA?And if South Africans have lost their SA citizenship then they have to pay for visa's to 'stay' in SA. Do you pay for a SA visa when you have a Canadian passport?

So I can't help but wonder how much money is involved in this whole exercise.

AHA :) conspiracy theory....maybe I'm just going overboard... :D

Firstly, unabridged birth cetificates lodged in SA can be done in a few weeks.

Secondly, resumption of SA citizenship, after return to SA takes about 6 months.

Thisrdly,a SA born person who has lost citizenship does not lose the right to residence and therefore requires no visa,no work or other type of temporary residence permit.

As a Canadian passport holder you do not require a visa to enter SA.

Regards,Julian

Hendie,

When I travel anywhere on Earth, I want the protection of a proper Western government. If taking Canadian citizenship does NOT automatically lose one one's SA Citizenship, then those who left SA and simply took Canadian citizenship can potentially face a Harar type of situation. We all know what happened there...SEVERE Hanky Panky.

My own situation was unnecessarily and totally avoidably complicated by us keeping SA citizenship. Hence I set about finding out what I have to do to be actively rid of it for the above reason. I'm not the only one on SACanada with that situation. I've had the question before, so I thought I'd post the Embassy answer.

There is a clear lapse in logic somwehere: If

1. one can always get one's SA citizenship back when you want it (even if it is dual), and

2. you autmotically lose it when you get another citizenship.

... then the obvious thing is to

a] just get the other citizenship and

b] NOT take dual citizenship, and

c] ask the SA government for your citizenship back when you one day want it, for whatever reason.

What conceivable merit could there be in having dual citizenship under such circumstances. The logic eludes me utterly.

You do not automatically lose your SA citizenship unless it was acquired after October 1995 when the SA Citizenship act came into operation.

Prior to that date you did not automatically lose your status.

All that is required is that you take rather easy steps to preserve your status.

The choice is obviously yours.

Julian

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Hendie
You do not automatically lose your SA citizenship unless it was acquired after October 1995 when the SA Citizenship act came into operation.

Prior to that date you did not automatically lose your status.

All that is required is that you take rather easy steps to preserve your status.

The choice is obviously yours.

Julian

I'm sorry Julian, but it is statements like your's here (cursive) that confuses. :)

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Caroline&Peter

Hi Julian

Thanks for answering my questions. Although I did receive a different answer from Home Affairs (that you will lose your SA citizenship irrespecitve if you don't apply to keep it)-as you said- "the choice is yours". I guess we will find out when the time comes. South Africa has 'birth right' citizenship so one can always just reapply. I have already decided want I want to do so it's not so much an issues for me.

Somebody on the forum has guided me to a company that will get me the unabridged birth certificates in a couple of weeks for R380-that's good enough for me :) Home Affairs still incists that it will take between 6-12 months?? Maybe the person whom I spoke to wasn't 'clued up' enough.

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Harry

Julian,

I believe that, if you DO have clarity in the matter of these questions, you should post us something here that makes things unequivocally clear. Massive and enormous unclarity has been created by the goverment on this subject.

Folks want to know:

1. Must they still apply to the SA Government for the right to take dual citizenship?

2. What must they do to get an SA passport if they have lived in Canada for a long time and want to visit SA.

3. What must they do if they do NOT want to enter SA on an SA passport and they want Canadian protection?

A statement like : "a SA born person who has lost citizenship does not lose the right to residence and therefore requires no visa,no work or other type of temporary residence permit." is hugely confusing. Does it mean that I can do that if I renounce SA Citizenship etc etc etc etc.

Folks need this stuff clarified in words of one sylable.

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Robert McGee
Folks want to know:

1. Must they still apply to the SA Government for the right to take dual citizenship?

2. What must they do to get an SA passport if they have lived in Canada for a long time and want to visit SA.

3. What must they do if they do NOT want to enter SA on an SA passport and they want Canadian protection?

4. Am I a South African citizen or not?

It is actually shocking that I can't positively say whether I am a SA citizen or not after reading all of this. I acquired Canadian citizenship in 2005. Did I automatically forfeit my SA citizenship then, or need I actually have to take steps to renunciate it?

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josemb

Hi

So my question is what reason does one give for retaining your citizenship?

I am in the process of doing my dual citizenship application. Where can one do an affidavit which doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Anybody have any idea how long it takes to get the letter for permission to retain for SA citizenship?

Anything I should be aware of? I am an adopted child, so I figure mine is not as cut and dried as the rest - my adoptive folks got me through South Africa - and had to be PR and become SA citizens to get me. So my assumption is I won't have a problem.....

Any advice would be great.

Thanks

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Harry

josemb,

first of all, think twice before you ASK to have dual citizenship. If you do, like I did, then you can only enter SA on an SA passport. PERIOD. If you trust that government to not sc#*w you, then go ahead. I do not trust them. They have shown their true colors. Remember, Canada is NOT going to protect you if you enter SA on an SA passport.

If you go ahead, then you can tell them : "We want to retire in SA and bring all our Canadian money with". They'll say yes. They want your money. That is all that the New SA is about.

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fatcat

Got this info off the Australian site, so my question is, has anyone here in Canada with a Canadian passport actually cancelled their South African citizenship. I was under the impression that SA citizenship fell away and then we just merrily travelled on a Canadian passport when travelling to SA.

This is the topic from the Aus site :

It's been a much debated subject (you'll find all of it if you do a search), so I'll just give you the facts:

If you receive Aussie citizenship without applying to retain your RSA Citizenship, you forfeit your RSA citizenship, However (and this is where t does not make sense!) To give up your RSA citizenship, you have to apply to RSA (even though the fact that you did not apply to keep it, caused you to forfeit it! ) If you do not officially apply to give up your RSA citizenship, it is illegal to travel to RSA with your Aussie passport (same confusion... )

In short: If you want to keep it, apply BEFORE you get Aussie Citizenship. If you want to renounce it, apply AFTER you get your Aussie Citizenship.... Whatver you do, get the papers!

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Lorrett

My husband and I did formally apply to renounce our SA citizenship AFTER we became Canadian citizens. We filled in a form, attached our SA passports and ID books and then a year later we got a letter from SA saying we are no longer citizens but we remain permanent residents. When we go to SA now on our Canadian passports they put a visa in at the airport valid for 3 months.

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johankok

There were some threads about this issue previously on SACANADA, just after dual citizenship laws changed:

The gist of it:

Dual citizenship for South Africans are now allowed. You have to formally renounce your citizenship to loose it. You are required to use your SA passport on entry into SA, whilst still being an SA citizen.

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Harry

I've really had it with this subject. I believe we put it to bed recently and I'm not debating it yet again for the n-th time just because folks do not want to use the search engine.

The definitive summary post on the matter is PRECISELY HERE. PLEASE READ IT ( and the thread around it) before anyone posts one single more article on the subject.

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CharleneK

Hear-hear! <_<

Charlene

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Matisse

After just over 3 years in Canada, I'm now able to apply for citizenship. But because I wish to retain my SA citizenship, I'm starting first with the double citizenship application to the SA government.

In terms of the SA legislation, it's required to submit an application to retain your SA citizenship prior to accepting citizenship from another country. So, if I get this application off to the SA authorities and shortly thereafter start with the paperwork for Canadian citizenship, I hope to get an answer back from SA prior to the point where I'm accepting Canadian citizenship. I'm not sure what I'm going to do if this doesn't work out, but I'll worry about that later. :ph34r:

Now, my question is the following. In terms of the dual citizenship procedure I am required to submit a sworn affidavit to state that I have not acquired citizenship from any other country. Can I just write my own little statement and get it notarized, or is it necessary for this statement to be prepared by a lawyer? Can anyone assist with some kind of format for this statement?

PS: this question has been asked twice before under this thread, but there was no response. So, as far as I know I'm not asking stuff for which information is already available on the site.

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