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Why Canada?

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digin

I know Canada seems small compared to the US, but when did we become a city? ;)

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Guest Engela

Correction - COUNTRY! Must be the flu I am having............. . Like a Canadian friend of mine said - Please do not compare us with the U.S!

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Karen

I always remember a guy I met being asked why he came to Canada and he replied with the straightest of faces,"Well, I saw a sign telling me to drink Canada Dry, so I came and I did!".

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grumbleguts

I have lived and worked in the UK, Hong Kong and the USA and have travelled a lot in Australia and europe but have never been to Canada - though I am hoping to buy a farm there some day soon...

My reasoning for choosing Canada is simple:-

1.) People are the same all over the world - some friendly, some not - you can always find good guys and bad guys in every culture.

2.) I like space, and the rest of the world is full - I currently live in the UK and it is 'propvol mense' - otherwise it is quite nice in a boring kind of way.

3.) Australia has space but it is too hot for me, and the culture is too similar to SA culture for me.

so Canada is (together with Argentina or perhaps Russia) a reasonable and logical choice, Russia is really a great place but has serious crime (like SA) and Argentina has a language I dont understand and a culture that I dont sympathize with.

one last point - South-Africans abroad are occasionally rude, criminal or just unpleasant, and every so often you run into one of them or meet locals who have been ripped off by them and you are reminded why leaving SA was so easy in the first place, so places with large SA populations like Perth in Australia and Putney in London are places I typically avoid. I didnt leave SA to live with other SA's in a South African Ghettoe in another country, when you leave you leave for something better, not more of the same, so that is another good reason in my opinion to avoid Australia in particular.

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Adele

Well we have high numbers to in Canada. Not being here I would seriously suggest an LSD.

one last point - South-Africans abroad are occasionally rude, criminal or just unpleasant, and every so often you run into one of them or meet locals who have been ripped off by them and you are reminded why leaving SA was so easy in the first place, so places with large SA populations like Perth in Australia and Putney in London are places I typically avoid. I didnt leave SA to live with other SA's in a South African Ghettoe in another country, when you leave you leave for something better, not more of the same, so that is another good reason in my opinion to avoid Australia in particular

I don't consider myself rude, criminal or unpleasant, but when I read a post like this from someone who has no clue about being in Canada I want to become all of the above.

Let me tell you that not only will you meet many South Africans but you will also meet locals in Canada who have many good, friendly South Africans as neighbours, work collegues and friends. But towards other South Africans the friendlyness stops there (unless you register and be nice to the people at Sacanada).

In Canada you need to network more so than in South African and usually the first place many ex pats net work is within their own culture. It is this attitude of Me, Myself and I why South Africans don't succeed. We want to do everything on our lonesome. If only we could stand together as an economically forceful community like the East Indians and the Orientals in Canada we might do better for ourseleves. So you might want to consider avoiding Canada as well.

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thelategans

Don't get so defensive. Those are perfectly legitimate observations. It could apply to SA's or any other nation for that matter. This board welcomes people expressing their opinion.

Stuart

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Harry

Stuart,

I'm sure Neil is entirely entitled to his opinion.

I can even relate a bit to his argument for why not Australia...something along the lines of "If you are going to make a change, why make half-a-change?"

Right now the bit that is rather disappointing is actually:

"...meet locals who have been ripped off by them ( South Africans) and you are reminded why leaving SA was so easy in the first place"

Pray tell more, Neil....because the image you conjure up with the post is that SA folks in general are to be avoided because they rip decent people off.

1. Is this a reality in the UK?.....and

2. What's this about a "ghetto"? Are they slumming together in the UK now?

....I've experienced none of that kind of stuff over here in Canada. So I'd like to know.

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shaun

mmmmm......... My 10c worth.

Just before we left to come to Canada a friend of mine that was living in the UK came back to SA for a vacation. When I asked her what it was really like living in the UK, she said that the weekends are great in Spain and that she lives in a SAn 'refugee' camp in the UK. It was said in jest, but by the sound of things its seems to be true to a certain degree.

Being ripped off.....Yes I fully agree. I have been working(struggling) to get my business off the ground, one of the things that I have come across quite often is the fact that there are a lot (actually plenty) of SAners doing their own thing, but seems they get halfway with the job and then walk away. And this is right across the spectrum, from motor mechanics to, home reno guys to accountants and financial people or even just trying to buy a car. I'm not saying that everyone is doing it, but there are a few. This is especially true when it comes to the treatment that new immigrants get from old immigrants. it happened to me... I just hope I'm not doing the same to others. ;)

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Robert McGee
I didnt leave SA to live with other SA's in a South African Ghettoe in another country, when you leave you leave for something better, not more of the same, so that is another good reason in my opinion to avoid Australia in particular.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was in Sydney recently on a business trip. The person that I dealt with was also an ex-SA and he invited me to his house on more than one occasion. What really surprised me was how his family was living in what I can only describe as Little Pretoria. ALL their friends were ex- SA's. He and his wife would answer the phone in Afrikaans. They were proud to tell me that 40% of the kids in the school they send their kids to are from SA.

The term "Ghetto" came to mind. So I find it interesting that someone else also uses the word "ghetto". I agree that a big part of the reason I left SA was to get away from certain things and certain people and the last thing I want to do is surrounding myself with that. I believe the best way to make a success of immigration and to adapt as quickly and as painlessly as possible is to assimilate and become Canadian, not to live in a virtual or physical SA community.

In Canada you need to network more so than in South African and usually the first place many ex pats net work is within their own culture. It is this attitude of Me, Myself and I why South Africans don't succeed. We want to do everything on our lonesome. If only we could stand together as an economically forceful community like the East Indians and the Orientals in Canada we might do better for ourselves. So you might want to consider avoiding Canada as well.

I have done my networking with as many people as I can, mostly Canadians. I found that worked the best for me. I don't think one should exclude any particular group of people when networking professionally or socially, but I do see a grave danger in targeting one particular group like SA's.

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thelategans

My interpretation of Neil's post is that he certainly is not generalising and defenitely not implying that someone on SACanada is any of those things. The response was thus in my opinion "inappropriate".

The idiom of the written and spoken word must not be intepretid too litterally or subjectively. We all have different ways of expressing ourselves.

I have also heard similar incidents from many friends and am aware of a number of SA's that are basically emmmigrant fugitives. Their history leaves no reason for me to believe that they have turned a new leaf and want to embrace fellow SA's. There are many "baddies" out there and yes some of them are SA's. From my banking days and reports that I have from tracing agents that we used, (who traced some of these skelms to Canada) I can tell you some horror stories that will make your hair stand on end.

Stuart

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Harry

I'm sorry to belabour the point,

but I believe Neil phrased the statement in such a way that it indicates that CONCENTRATIONS OF SOUTH AFRICANS IN PARTICULAR are a problem, more so than, for example, concentrations of Afghanis, Brits, Ukranians, French, Indians etc etc [picking groups purely at random by way of illustration].

If our SA ex-pat community, in particular, has a larger semi-criminal profile than other groups, I'd like to know about it. This is the first time ever in my entire life that I have heard such a suggestion and I have a valid question that I'd love to hear answered.

I want to know why Neil singled the SA folks out to such a degree that he has to particularly avoid THEM globally? I trust my question is now even more clear?

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thelategans

Harry, I also do not want to labour the point. Here I am defending freedom of speech (and I know not Neil from a bar of soap) and I am headed for an argument with the guru of debate!. T-O!!

My personal point of view is that regardless of race, creed or colour, their are bad people out there. I also believe that some nationalities are worse than others, but will never express my opinion publically on which one's I think are worse than others.

Stuart

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Harry

Stuart,

I am 100% at peace with your comments....go in peace.

I'd like Neil to say MORE, not LESS...he has his freedom of speech.

I want to know why Neil singled the SA folks out to such a degree that he has to particularly avoid THEM SPECIFICALLY globally?

We either have a community problem or we don't...

..or am I missing a subtle point here somewhere? I have been known to on occasion.

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shaun

LOL tracing agents..... I have been offered on more than one occasion to 'deliver' documents on behalf of a tracing agency here in Canada. Looks to be a very lucrative business. 10% of the payout money (if any) is what it pays. I have a friend in SA who was a lawyer but now has a share in a large tracing firm with many 'international' tracee's. 17% of the people on their books are in Canada or North America.

Down side to this is that you only get paid once the firm gets paid. Up side to it is if you can wait there is lots of money to be made. Some folk owe in excess of R500 000. At 5:1 thats $10 000 a pop. Pity I'm not the type of person who goes around being a 'gat brander'.

Clients range from the type that sold a house twice, to the type that filled containers with furniture and appliances on HP and then vanished.

.....and these nice folk live amongst us. ..........oppas........

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Sangoma
My personal point of view is that regardless of race, creed or colour, their are bad people out there. I also believe that some nationalities are worse than others, but will never express my opinion publically on which one's I think are worse than others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

;) im shocked....... cant we keep some of these comments to ourselves...

Anyways, my experience and view is that there are immigrants among groups of immigrants who prey like vultures on newly arrived ones. When you first get here they pretend to help but in the process enrich themselves. These %&*#@$% give the others a bad name.

I was sitting in a North Vancouver Starbucks this weekend and an incident, not involving me, ocurred prompting one of the Canadian patrons to say "These South Africans are the rudest people I have ever met". He must have met a few of the bad apples.

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shaun

Ah..... Sangoma so you too have met some of the vultures....

I was going to use something a little stronger than ......%&*#@$%.

Edited by shaun

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Sangoma

Shaun ....have I ever met the vultures.... I have become very selective of which people I mingle with. Ek kyk altyd eers die kat van die boom af.

Edited by Sangoma

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Wesley
I also believe that some nationalities are worse than others, but will never express my opinion publically on which one's I think are worse than others.

Stuart

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I won't say I'm shocked but just suprised somewhat to see this kind of comment.

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Harry

The "immigrant vulture" is a particularly insiduous creature that worries me a lot as a particular species. The word "vulture" is appropriate, because they go after the vulnerable.

As for rude...yes!.... probably true by the general Canadian norm. I'm sure they find SA's just as rude as they find Americans. I'm not sure that's a bad injection of blood around here. I think the place can do in general with more adrenaline.

My question stands, though...does this SA immigrant community have a bigger problem than other immigrant communities, or are we just outraged, as we should be, by the fact that there are some bad apples who defrauded a furntiure shop or sold a house twice?

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Sangoma

Harry:

I cant really answer your question, but based on the support networks other immigrant groups have established for themselves I wouldnt be suprised if South Africans resort to more desparate means since they dont get the the same assistance from their own community.

There are enough South Africans in the lower mainland to establish a South African Community Centre, but yet there isnt one. And yes I know that other foreign governments would help their own people establish one - the South African government would never do that.

White South Africans are very similar to the Canadians and the Americans in that they dont really have the distinct cultures that other societies have. Or do they ??? (I wouldnt know since Im a hyphenated south african.)

Edited by Sangoma

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Harry

Like I said elsewhere...INVISIBLE MINORITY

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Adele
I cant really answer your question, but based on the support networks other immigrant groups have established for themselves I wouldnt be suprised if South Africans resort to more desparate means since they dont get the the same assistance from their own community.

There are enough South Africans in the lower mainland to establish a South African Community Centre, but yet there isnt one. And yes I know that other foreign governments would help their own people establish one - the South African government would never do that.

:mellow: If anyone wants start one, The Goverment actually pays communities from other countries a (Large) sum of money on a yearly basis for establishing and maintaining the property of Community Centers. You need to elect a group of people: President, V.P. Treasury, Secretary, etc. to officially run the center to.

Each year the communities have to apply for the grant. That is in excess of what they can charge for membership, and what their goverments give them.

But the "community of South Africans" that is of the type Neil is referring to, how would he know? He has not even been to Canada!

Yes there are crooks out there. :angry: Like the agent we had who never arrived at the airport to collect my husband when he arrived a month before I did. After we had made the arrangements. Like paying them, before leaving SA, for two weeks accomodation, and then having them not arrange it. BUT WE CAN NOT GENERALIZE ABOUT EVERYONE BEING BAD! The world over? :)

Yes some nations can be worse than others but if we don't live with those nations how do we know this? Or is this a generalization too?

I too know of many people that have been quite proud of ripping others off. :angry: Mostly Canadians, but a fair number of South Africans. Then someone comes along and they genuinely want to help and they end up getting treated like Neil has descibed. So they basically need to ostrasize (sp?) themselves and people requiring help loose another good person.

As someone who organises meet ups I have encountered South Africans coming along just to see what they can get out of it. Not for the fun time intended. My meetings are about supporting each other in an emotional way. Making friends and having someone who can understand how you feel when you miss something on common. I have been told that I am splitting the community. WHAT COMMUNTIY FOR HEAVENS SAKE! Harry, you may recall who I am referring to. I think those that have been to the meetings can honestly say they had a good time, some friendships were made, some laughs were had and everyone enjoyed themselves. Maybe a couple of cards were swapped, but it was easier than writing your phone number down. I have not heard if any business has taken place as a result of our fun meet ups and I must say the ripoff artists have not come out to anymore, when they realised it was a FUN event. But, if you want to network for gain you can go to the SA business meetings or some other network meetings. I can send you a list. I subscribe to almost all of them.

And then there is the 'community' I admire.:ilikeit: Like Harry, Wesley, Digin, Hendie, et al that meet up with SAens on LSDs and drive them around and invite them to their homes. I personally try to meet up with people and succeed only when they choose to settle in Langley, White Rock, Surrey and Delta, but I don't live in "Little Johannesburg" as one Canadian friend mentioned, therefore I don't see as many people.

Stuart, I just felt that it was unfair of someone who has never been here and who could actually make an assumption about South Africans everywhere, and generalize about all us because of the types he runs into. I was not taking it personally, event though he has his freedom of speech, On a forum like this you can not generalize when insulting nations.

I too would like Neil to say MORE, not LESS...and agree he has his freedom of speech. :)

My question to him would be: If he does not associate with South Africans then why did he do a search, register and post to a South African forum? I think one of us might insult him or worse rip him off! :ph34r:

Harry, I do believe we have a community problem. :( But that discussion would require a longer debate and a new thread altogether. :unsure:

Thank you. Now I will pipe down. ;)

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shaun

Harry

My answer to your question would be yes and no.

Yes

> We absolutely do have a problem when it comes to standing together as a community. (most probably got something to do with SA history and dead grannies and grandpas and politics). This forum bears witness to that (cooler).

> Feel that we have to be rewarded (usually financially) for our deeds. This is where the rip off artists come in to play.

> Feel that the world and Canada owes us something.

> Alway feel we have to justify ourselves and our actions.

> we try so hard to be that 'invisible minority' instead of standing up and being proud of the fact that we are/were South Africans, and always will be. I don't give a rats rear end how many years someone has lived in Canada, deep down inside your lungs theres still a DNA sample of SA air, and you got that in you because you lived there once.

No

> I don't think overall we have half the problems that other immigrant nationalities have when it comes to crime and rip off artists. There are other nationalities out there that are way better at it than us. ( I can already hear all the gasps and ooohhhhs and aaahhhs coming from the PC penut gallery).

On Saturday mornings I can go and watch a cricket match down at the local community centre. I can't play though because its an Indian team playing against a Pakistani team. I can stand on the side line and shout and scream and comment as much as i want, but play.... no-way. They all know I'm SAn and some know of my bowling skills, but its a community thing.

Just imagine how it must be back in the suburbs where these folk live, go to school, worship and socialize together as communities.

We SAner will rather rip each other off, sneeringly point out others mistakes and down falls and alway try and be one up on the Jones's rather than try and uplift ourselve together as a growing community within Canada.

I think we(immigrant SA community)are doomed, and its self inflicted.

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grumbleguts

Hi all,

I seem to have stirred a few of you up - sorry about that - it was not my intention.

In my travels I have met many great SA people living happily in various countries, and they are really nice people, and I am sure all you folk on this forum are similarly wholesome.

I have however also met other SA folk who are less wholesome and who (because I am a South African) have targeted me (and other SAs) as someone who they consider easy to exploit because of our shared culture, and I on my part have perhaps trusted them more than I would have someone from another culture. This really is part of what I was driving at - and this is not unique to the SA community at all, I found that in expat chinese, Russian and Indian cultures the same thing takes place, however because I am SA I experience it at the hands of SA 'vultures', while they would obviously experience it at the hands of chinese, russian or indian 'vultures'.

SA people however I am sure are no more likely to be criminal than any other ethnic group - I however (because of a shared heritage etc.) will always be more susceptible to unscrupulous SA con men and criminals than I will be to those who are non-SA. Amongst 'foreigners' I feel less obligation and am therefore less vulnerable, this doesn't mean I disassociate totally from SA folk, but it does mean that I choose my friends based upon who they are not where they came from. I have many Israeli friends who find the same things in their communities and so this is not unique just to SA expat communities - OK?

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grumbleguts

I have just read some of Adele's posts - which I would like to respond to:-

Adele asks -> ".... My question to him would be: If he does not associate with South Africans then why did he do a search, register and post to a South African forum?..."

I am registered on this forum because I think it is useful and because I will shortly be in Canada. I respect many of the viewpoints aired on these forums and find the experiences of those who have gone before me invaluable.

I feel I can comment on expat SAs generally because the subject of this topic covered other countries by comparison with Canada, so I dont have to be in Canada to comment on this topic.

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