Laurenwallace

Cultural differences and fitting in

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Laurenwallace

Hi all,

So I was wondering - have any of you had a similar experience to mine...

I was under the impression that, when it comes to employment and the way we work, that South Africans and Canadians were pretty much the same... and boy was I wrong! I am talking from the perspective of a newcomer, and a foreigner, into a coprorate company. The corporate culture is different (in SA its very talkative and friendly, here its very professional and almost awkward) and fitting in is very difficult to do. Trying to make conversation, and cracking a few jokes usually leaves me with blank stares from my collegues. The communication level is also completely different, as are the expectations. For corporate communications (the department that I am in) the level of language is way above what I am used to, and even above what I was taught at the technikon while doing my national diploma for communications and PR... so you tend to feel really illiterate and stupid. The expectations are that of 'you should just know' and the little things like how the government departments are structured are expected of you. Yes, they are willing to answer your questions if you ask, but to ask a question about almost every task you are given... again, makes you feel stupid. The Canadians view everything differently, and it is very easy to feel out of place, on a daily basis!

Maybe its just me, but I personally find that my opinions, humour, understanding (language and emotional intelligence), and general interaction skills are misplaced completely.

I was very grateful to have this opportunity, but I am second guessing myself every day, and as a perfectionist and a people person, this is very frustrating and demotivating... maybe I should give the corporate world a rest and go into something more rewarding...

Have any of you had an experience similar to this? And if so, how did you over come it?

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Sean-Tienie

Your experience sounds similar to mine.

I felt exactly the same as you do at work right now. I always felt a little insecure as the culture is very different to what I was used to back in S.A. I had to tone my humor down to the point that it actually felt pointless.

Companies here love their acronyms and half the time I had no idea what they were talking about.

We were so well prepared for our move to Canada that we never gave the ‘culture fit in the workplace’ a second thought. What a mistake it was for us to assume that it is similar to the workplace in S.A. (I moved to a similar environment to the one I worked in S.A.).

When people asked me how it was different I couldn’t explain it. It eventually struck me that everyone is so PC that you don’t actually say how you really feel.

One thing I can assure you is that it does get better. Just before I left their employ, one of my colleagues turned around and said “you made me feel a little insecure as you are so good at what you do, I never felt like I could measure up”. What an eye opener as here I was the one thinking I couldn’t measure up. Perhaps Canadians feel the same when we arrive with our foreign education/work skills….

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Guest Petros

Hmm the dirty little secret that so many Saffers keep close to their chests.

10 rules for Saffers starting work in Canada

  1. A very large number are laid off, fired, retrenched, dismissed or change first jobs pretty quickly (you pick the reason)
  2. At work Saffers are generalists Canadians are specialists. If your skillset is putting widget A (size 5) into gadget B (size 5) then thats what you do ---- they have no concept that in SA you can do a million other things and this is expected of you. Here not - they employed you for a job do it and dont stick your nose into other things (even if it will help the compnay)
  3. Work is work your opinion does not count, you need to agree with the general pool
  4. Politics, religion are absolute no no's at work
  5. SA humour is 108 degrees different to Canadian - dont even try you will lose, they dont get us and we dont get them.
  6. If you are getting isolated then stop what you have been doing shut-up listen, learn and express nothing because you may be at risk of losing your job (its like an early warning sign).
  7. Dont talk about SA or why you left they dont understand, they dont care and it does not matter
  8. Comparing how you did things in SA and why that way is better will get you isloated - if you that good then why are you here?
  9. For Canada to work people need to be very neutral and PC - there is no way a country with this many forigners would work otherwise (so its a good thing)
  10. Once they have lived with you long enough and they get the picture you will see the world open and it will be absolutely wonderful ---- hang in till then.

I am quite sure that someone out there will have proof that each and every one of my points is wrong but take 100 random companies with 100 random Saffers and the 10 rules above will have significant statistical presence.

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Laurenwallace

Petros - what you say rings VERY true! Its quite isolating... I am not used to being so 'left out', even if we didnt like each other at work in SA, we would still greet each other. But they are not just like this with me - they are like this with each other! We sit in cubicles (yuck!) and they would rather email the person sitting in the cubicle next to them than get up and talk to them. They even have a 'insta chat' thing for this very purpose. So its not just my department that is silent, it is the ENTIRE floor! Its kinda creepy. South Africans are very loud, and fun. Everything is very 'mechanical' and has little or no feeling attached to it. Work is work. And I think my problem is, back in SA I was in an industry where I had to do 5 things, and report to one person. Here I do one job, and report to 5 people. Total opposite. And the being 'dropped in the deep end' really throws your bearings out completely. Especially when you dont understand the Acronyms, or the way that the government is structured, or the different names they call things (there were some light hearted posts on this topic, but when it comes down to it, if you dont know what they are talking about, its not fun at all). Even our accents, which they generally love, can be to our disadvantage - a new girl started here on Monday, her name is Tawny. Now we say this name VERY differently to Canadians, and I have to remember that, otherwise she wont even know that I am addresssing her! What you were once confident in your abilities to do, now is oblitirated... its a downer, let me tell you. And to sit here and type this, makes me fight with myself - I have a good paying job, with medical and vacation, so what am I bitching about... argh.

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Guest Petros

We sit in cubicles (yuck!) and they would rather email the person sitting in the cubicle next to them than get up and talk to them. They even have a 'insta chat' thing for this very purpose. So its not just my department that is silent, it is the ENTIRE floor! Its kinda creepy. South Africans are very loud, and fun.

Exactly !

good luck and "sterkte" :)

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M-N

Eish, that makes me worry because I am a trainer and my work will involve talking to alot of different people. I love cracking jokes and make my audience chuckle (my topic of training isn't exactly the MOST interesting). Guess I"ll have to rethink my jokes and start working on my PC-edness. I'm very straightforward in saying what I think.

Luckily for me, myself and my "hopefully" soon to be boss lady (if we can get past this LMO headache) chat over Skype often. Sometimes it's a casual "how are you?" or "what are you up to? " so I feel like she is aware of my personality and my humour.

I travel a lot and have been to different "African" countries and usually experience the same feelings. Only thing is I usually only have 3 or 4 days to warm up to the culture, so I just focused on work and being myself, by the end of the trip we are laughing and they end up warming up to me. I could be wrong, as I don't know the canadian culture, but they are people too and I'm sure eventually, once they scoped you out, they will approach you differently.

I'm hoping this will happen for me too. :)

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Tracey22

Canadians at work are not the same as Saffers. Building personal relationships in an office is not a cultural thing here. i have found that my friendships built at the office are with those who are immigrants themselves. I find that I gravitate naturally to the Dutch immigrants. We have a similar humour and approach to work.

My colleagues think it is just WEIRD that in SA we had BBQs on a Friday after work, or that the whole department would go out for drinks together. In Toronto, my experience is that people come to work to earn an income, and then go home to their lives.

telecommuting (conferencing by phone, video etc) was a big thing in Bank of Montreal. In my current company it is not wanted, and is frowned upon. So the use of technology to discuss matters is dependant on the company you work for. At BMO (bank of Montreal) I had become quite good "friends" with a colleague in New York and with another in Toronto, but in a different office to me. i only met both of them 15 months after i strated working, at a conference.

As time goes by, you will start to make personal adjustments, and start to fit in a little better.

Edited by Tracey22

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Laurenwallace

Canadians at work are not the same as Saffers. Building personal relationships in an office is not a cultural thing here. i have found that my friendships built at the office are with those who are immigrants themselves. I find that I gravitate naturally to the Dutch immigrants. We have a similar humour and approach to work.

Too true... as important as it is to integrate into the Canadian Cultre and become part of their world, at work it is harder to do. I have also noticed there is a sort of comaradarie with the immigrants here (not that there are many - on my floor which seats easily 120 people there is one African from Kenya and myself) Although Canadians are very PC, and very friendly - its very much 'surface' niceness. What it boils down to - and this is in my experience so far - Canadians tend to stick with Canadians. The friends I have here, that I have made since landing are 3 South African families and 1 Lebanese mom. My children are turning 'Canadian' very quickly, which makes my heart happy because it means that they are integrating into the culture and way of thinking and speaking. But for myself, currently, this is not the case. But Ill keep on keeping on. n Boer maak n plan :boxing:

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Merv
Although Canadians are very PC, and very friendly - its very much 'surface' niceness

You have hit the nail on the head with that statement!

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OutOfSa

" Maybe its just me, but I personally find that my opinions, humour, understanding (language and emotional intelligence), and general interaction skills are misplaced completely."

Eish, I got seriously confused for the first year as my dry humour was so far out of place that I think I was about to be run out of town with pitchforks and fire.

Whereas in SA, people loved what I said. Major downer!

So, abooooot two days ago, I made my first successful Canadian quip: (Quite by accident)

We have a kid at work that is like a bull in a china shop here, he bangs and thuds around. So much so that I get furious, as do my colleagues - but what can you do?

So I absent mindedly said - "he's like a dam Raccoon stuck in a dumpster...."

Well, they collapsed, what can I say? It took 18 months to get the first smile !!??! :ilikeit:

So hang in there it will take time.

Heed what Petros says, even if they ask about SA, say something positive and move on as quick as you can.

They will warm up in time. (If you lose the humour and smart remarks! Become a ROBOT.)

The question is, how would I fit in in SA now that I have turned off my humour and quietened down. I'd probably think Saffers are crass and obtuse. :D

BTW: I have worked a couple of Jobs. from low to highish - it seems to me to be similar on all levels, but a probably a bit more tense the higher you go!

I'm afraid it's just one of the many trades you made when coming here.

My 16 year old daughter has Canadian-ated, she thinks I am quite uncouth and barbaric.... :o

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Guest Petros

Eish, that makes me worry because I am a trainer and my work will involve talking to alot of different people. I love cracking jokes and make my audience chuckle (my topic of training isn't exactly the MOST interesting). Guess I"ll have to rethink my jokes and start working on my PC-edness. I'm very straightforward in saying what I think.

Luckily for me, myself and my "hopefully" soon to be boss lady (if we can get past this LMO headache) chat over Skype often. Sometimes it's a casual "how are you?" or "what are you up to? " so I feel like she is aware of my personality and my humour.

I travel a lot and have been to different "African" countries and usually experience the same feelings. Only thing is I usually only have 3 or 4 days to warm up to the culture, so I just focused on work and being myself, by the end of the trip we are laughing and they end up warming up to me. I could be wrong, as I don't know the canadian culture, but they are people too and I'm sure eventually, once they scoped you out, they will approach you differently.

I'm hoping this will happen for me too. :)

M-N ----- you will need at least 12 months to get into the culture. I cannot stress how badly u risk slamming into the cultural wall if you try anything like you have done in SA. Unless you have lived here for a while dont even try any humour the SA and Canadian humour world is 180 degrees different (this is not Africa its not even close to Africa in ANY way). Keep it strictly work, neutral and above all PC. Yes they are people and once you understand the culture you will love this place till then you in for a steep learning curve.

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Guest Petros

Guess I"ll have to rethink my jokes and start working on my PC-edness. I'm very straightforward in saying what I think.

Two corrections to your statements above

  • don't rethink your jokes - drop them completely until you have seen all 4 seasons in this country
  • straightforward will get you "laid-off" quicker than you can shovel your driveway

I hope that I am scaring you cause this will be pretty much the best advice anyone will give you for getting ahead real quick in Canada. Far too many of us arrive here and get hurt and struggle till one of three things happen --- either we get it ourselves and then the world becomes better, or some decent guy sits us down and explains and we listen,learn and change and the world becomes better orrrrrrrr we dont listen and learn and end up hating this place and live a life of failure and regret (you will meet some of those as well ---- avoid them like the plauge).

I listened and learnt and man did life become soooo much better. Love this place a lot.

P.S - your gut feel on people is set and tuned to SA people not Canada people that will take a while.

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Freddy

All points given above are correct and true. Second guessing oneself is a terrible feeling. To be honest whatever standard Canadian are talking about, is far way less than what we have in SA.( I'm in IT) but anyway I need them right now and so I keep my opinions to myself except when needed. Simply as that.

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OutOfSa

Oh yeah,

It also seems to me that women have double trouble :stretcher: . Men seem to be infinitesimally more accommodating....

Woman are another matter!

Also watch for the words they don't get, Like Eish, or Oke. They sometimes slip out, and I have to rephrase pretty quickly. They also take time to understand your accent and word emphasis. Speak slowly and use common simple words. Be on your guard for misinterpretation. (Watch the eyes glaze over....)

As for the English, I am somewhat surprised by this as my experience is the opposite - "me and my buddy" etc....

Certain industries trail SA, while others exceed SA.

SA: I believe anything related to banking, security and crime are streets ahead (Especially IT) - simple necessity - such incredible levels of theft and fraud required more and more innovative designs to thwart them. (Sort of like what WW1 and WW2 did for the aeroplane (airplane :D ) industry.

Once again, I agree with Petros and the others: You have to put your pride in your pocket, listen and learn or else you'll come unstuck and then all that effort was for nothing. It so sucks, but it does pass!

Now days I get home and chill, without much of a care, it was not always like that....

It's not so bad to Canadianarise, it's actually quite mellow. My kids asked for a flag outside !

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spanner

I'm sure there is much truth to the responses in this thread, but I also think it's important to remember that at the end of the day it comes down to the individual.

Generalizations are useful to an extent but all countries and all nationalities are complex and can't easily be captured by simple statements like "Canadians are PC, Canadians are only superficially nice, Canadians stick together etc".

For what it's worth, my experience doesn't confirm these statements. If anything I've found Canadians to be less superficial than English speaking Capetonians. And I've never had a problem joking with Canadians either. Granted, I'm nowhere near as highly qualified as most of you, so maybe it's a class thing, but yeah I don't really find Canadians all that different to myself.

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Guest Petros

Be on your guard for misinterpretation. (Watch the eyes glaze over....

Ha ha ha yes you are correct the eyes glazing over is a dead giveaway!! Love it!!

Edited by Petros
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Jules

This thread underlines the reason why "Canadian experience" is actually a real demand from employers here. They have had far too many fresh off the boat immigrants struggle to fit in. It's a problem.

After 10 years here I am finally starting to feel comfortable in the office but I cringe when I think back about how I was here a few years ago. Eina and not funny.

I will be honest: if I was hiring a manager and I had to choose between a Canadian and a newly landed SAn, then I would choose the Canadian if all things were equal. Obviously different story if the SAn had a few yrs of Canadian experience. Never thought I would ever say that. Just being honest.

:-(

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Laurenwallace

I'm sure there is much truth to the responses in this thread, but I also think it's important to remember that at the end of the day it comes down to the individual.

Generalizations are useful to an extent but all countries and all nationalities are complex and can't easily be captured by simple statements like "Canadians are PC, Canadians are only superficially nice, Canadians stick together etc".

For what it's worth, my experience doesn't confirm these statements. If anything I've found Canadians to be less superficial than English speaking Capetonians. And I've never had a problem joking with Canadians either. Granted, I'm nowhere near as highly qualified as most of you, so maybe it's a class thing, but yeah I don't really find Canadians all that different to myself.

Please dont take this post as me complaining about Canadians, Canada or generalisation. This is about me making an assumption that I would 'fit right in' at the workplace. I made the mistake of not doing research into this, not realising how much higher the Canadian standard is compared to SA, within the industry that I am qualified in and have had more than 10 year's experience in. This is about how much one month threw me off my game, simply because I expected it to be an easy adjustment. And it is not. Anyone that says otherwise, regardless of their industry, is bending the truth. Regardless of levels of qualifications or heirachy in a workplace - my husband is at Canadian Tire and I am in a very corporate company, two total opposites, and he says the same thing. It took him about 3 months to feel comfortable.

All I am trying to establish in this post, is am I alone in feeling isolated (by my own doing, in expecting too much) and if so, what warnings can we heed to the fellow saffa's coming out.

I love Canada. And I love Canadians. I just am only now realising how different we really are - I come from Pretoria, so you can understand a bit better then - we dont 'do' chilled there.(thats why I loved CT so much) There is no laid back in Gauteng. I am used to working with straight-forward, opinionated, loud, slightly overbearing, government employees (mostly from the old regime, so afrikaans speaking generally) so this for me is a HUGE culture shock.

I need to remember that when we were in SA, sitting in our almost empty house, we said that when we get to Canada, we are going to live a much simpler, chilled life. One that we always wished for, but were never able to have, in Gauteng. I need to remind myself of that. Because it is SO easy to get caught up here in the flow, the go-go-go of everyday. Life is expensive here, and Canadians work hard and fast, so to keep up with this pace is tough enough on its own. Nevermind the cultural difference that slapped me so hard, my mother's picture frames in SA rattled (Barry Hilton accent)

And to whoever else reads this post - what Petros is saying, albeit scary and maybe a bit harsh-sounding - the man speaks the truth (in my experience anyway)

I feel very relieved that I am not the only one struggling with this. And all the things that you have mentioned, made me laugh and nod and feel a bit better. Because its lonely here, and its tough, so to know that you are not alone in your feelings and experiences, makes a big difference. :ilikeit::hug::ilikeit:

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canuck nick

No need to apologize. There is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings. Many South Africans and I bet, other immigrants, have gone through this, as have I. At commercial and corporate levels in the big banks, they are very professional. In the laid back environment I came from in Nedbank PE, I found out quickly that I needed to step it up a few levels in order to fit in. Work is work and they don't make much time for chit chat.

Now I work for a smaller bank and in a commercial/retail branch, so the atmosphere and people dynamics are completely different. Its a lot closer to what I had with Nedbank and I fit in straight away. Your experience and perception will differ depending on the industry you work in and the type of business. Customer focused business are always busier and noisier and that lends itself to more informal interactions among staff.

I find that the performance expectation level here is quite high. I have met and worked with more people who have MBAs than just an under grad degree alone. A B-Degree here is the equivalent of a Matric in SA. Its a completely different mindset in the corporate working environment and you have to get your head around the nuances quickly.

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Eva

I'm definitely bookmarking this thread - very useful!

Is this (Canadian work culture) the same across all of Canada? Are there differences between Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary? In other words, is it easier for South Africans to fit in easier in some places more than others? How about the smaller cities?

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canuck nick

Hi Eva

It also depends on the demographics of your team\office. Of the 30 staff in my branch about half are Canadian and the rest immigrants. This is the norm in Vancouver where there are thousands more immigrants than in a place like, say Halifax or even Edmonton.

I can only speak for Vancouver but I wouldn't say this phenomenon is a Canadian workplace cultural thing. In my first job here I was definitely more guarded about what I said and I was conscious of how I behaved.

It seemed to go over well with the majority of my interactions and some Canadians remarked that South African men are better behaved than Canadians.

I don't think you can generalize. Lauren may find the complete opposite in another office around the corner.

While its true that as a South African, you should tone it down, that doesn't mean you must lose your identity completely, just be more cognizant of your surroundings. Remember, we moved here and we must fit in, not the other way around. Its not bad at all. We have been here 6 years and find Canadians by and large very polite and easy to get along with.

South Africa also has many cultures and after 1994 and with BEE,look how South Africans have had to adapt to each other. If anything, SA has become more PC than ever.

Edited by canuck nick
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Tracey22

Eva, I think the office environment depends on the inductry, size of the compny and location. I worked at FirstRand at headquarters, and then at BMO, at headquarters. The two companies were comparable in footprint 930,000 staff, 600 branches etc), but worlds apart culture wise.

I also worked at a small bank in JHB (Sasfin) and am now at a small mortgage company - both about 600 staff, both have a CEO that founded the company. In many ways, they are similar in corporate culture, and I am much happier here now.

The thing is, we are in a new country. it takes time to build (and rebuild) the resume, and the experience. if one company does not work for you culture wise, choose another, until you find the place where you want to be.

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Tracey22

Please dont take this post as me complaining about Canadians, Canada or generalisation. This is about me making an assumption that I would 'fit right in' at the workplace.

All I am trying to establish in this post, is am I alone in feeling isolated (by my own doing, in expecting too much) and if so, what warnings can we heed to the fellow saffa's coming out.

I feel very relieved that I am not the only one struggling with this. And all the things that you have mentioned, made me laugh and nod and feel a bit better. Because its lonely here, and its tough, so to know that you are not alone in your feelings and experiences, makes a big difference. :ilikeit::hug::ilikeit:

Is this not a purpose of this forum - to help each other. This means that we should be able to express our feelings, especially when it comes down to fitting into the new country we have chosen. The whole immigration process is not just roses and it is not easy. there are aspects of immigration that you cannot plan for, research or try to resolve until you find yourself in a particular situation.

That is what the forum is here for - to help each other out, to make each other feel that that we are not alone, that what we are experiencing is the norm, and is normal, and that THERE IS LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL.

there

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Laurenwallace

Thank you Tracy22 :hug:

I have decided, that I am going to most probably remove myself from the corporate world. I have the option of making half of what I am making now by staying at home, delivering pamphlets, offereing my services as an after school care facility and displaying my art (decoupage) at the markets on Saturdays. Where in SA could you bring in $1500 by doing these things - so here is my light at the end of my tunnel.

Bottom line is this - the opportunities in Canada are endless. You need to just keep swimming like Dori says in Finding Nemo. I am not fitting in here, and because of that, it is putting strain on my family life. Remember, I have 2 small children, so me going back to work also impacts them - sending them off to daycare where we fetch them at 6:00pm (we only have 1 car, so the communte is a well planned trip every day with 4 stop off points) By me staying home, and admittedly earning less, but still earning enough to get us through, will make it harder on our pockets, but easier on my family life, and that is and always has been my priority.

It really depends on the individual. Its as simple as that.

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Merv

Lauren.Wallace, I applaud your decision, it is so easy to get caught up in the rat race. A few years back I endured a complete mental breakdown with severe depression, have been hospitalised a few times for this, in between attempted suicide a few times. Yes I have been to hell and back, was unable to work for quite some time, but have slowly come back from the edge to the point where my mental health has considerably improved and has been stable for quite some time now. Have I recovered fully? No, but I have adjusted to and accepted the "new normal".

I now have the luxury of working in a pretty low stress job, from home, but earning pretty much what I was earning in 1995 when we first arrived here. Doing what I do (I am a contractor to G.E., doing IT support remotely), I have no worries about "Climbing the corporate ladder" and indeed have no desire to do so, I am quite happy doing what I do best and know extremely well. I must admit, I do feel envious at times of folks who are doing extremely well, but then I have to remind myself of what I have been through. I have had to accept that mental illness is not something to be ashamed of or a "weakness", It is a disease much like diabetes, where it can be controlled and improved, but not cured.

I will keep doing this while I endeavour to develop some other (low stress) business ventures.

What am I saying in my usual long winded and rambling fashion? It is OK to not have a desire or feel the need to claw your way up, success is NOT defined by monetary measures, but I like to feel, rather by happiness.

Coming back to the original post in this thread, when we came here in '95 I was plunged very much into the deep end and had to train a bunch of new recruits in the intricacies of the software package I have great in-depth knowledge of, prepare them for certification exams and get them ready to go out into the big bad world and earn the company money consulting on said software and implementing it. At that time I didn't care too much about PC, was actually pulled up once and told to tone it down slightly in my choice of words :whistling: , but pretty much remained myself with my quirky sense of humour. My initial class (Mainly from the USA) did indeed succeed in their exams, they also loved my style, and in the process I developed quite a few lifelong friends.

So, stay true to yourself, and above all else, amke sure you are happy doing what you do, and don't get caught up chasing the dollar.

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