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Harry

When the Loerie Sings Again

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dieulefit
Harry, daar's 'n goeie artikel in Beeld daaroor:

"Dit is ook die geval met Afrikaners. Deur kerkregisters te bestudeer, het die genealoog dr. Johannes A. Heese al in die 1970’s aangedui dat Afrikaners sowat 7% nie-blank is."

"Ná ’n paar jaar se werk het ek my voorouerlyne teruggevolg tot amper 300 immigrante wat gemiddeld al vir 11 generasies hier in Suid-Afrika is.

Dit is seker nie ’n verrassing dat ek meer as 30 keer aan die eerste Van der Merwe verwant is nie. Ek is 18 keer aan die eerste Botha en 15 keer aan die eerste Potgieter verwant."

"Hierdie stamboom wys ook dat Afrikaners tot ’n mate ingeteel is. In die wetenskap meet ons inteling as die kans dat twee gene wat jy van jou pa en ma ontvang, identiese afstammelinge van een voorouergeen is.

Hierdie klein deeltjie van my stamboom wys ses voorouers deur wie my pa en ma verwant is (Lijsbeth, Johan Herbst, Johannes Potgieter, Clara Herbst, Isabella Potgieter en Philippe du Preez). Vir elkeen van hierdie sogenaamde gemeenskaplike voorouers is daar ’n kans dat twee van my gene identies kan wees.

In my hele stamboom het ek 125 sulke gemeenskaplike voorouers opgespoor."

Nou is ek EERS dankbaar ons het landuit verhuis sodat my kinders nie met S.Afrikaners trou nie en sodoende die bloed bietjie kan 'uitvars'! (My seun het getrou met 'n Amerikaanse aster wat uit een van die oudste Amerikaanse families kom - goeie gene - of so hoop ek.... daar is nog nie babatjies nie!)

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Harry

STATUS REPORT

I've been asked to say where I am with the "Loerie"

I'm at about page 230 and at about 1850. The Brits have just taken Natal away from the Boere and are about to take the Free State away from them...."Onse Harry Smiff."

I have stood still at that point for a while, and have gone back through the entire thing doing a couple of things:

1. fixing references

2. Adding a wider variety of references from original works in the 1800's

3. Quoting more original people and fewer people who quoted them...that is, I now quote FIRST HAND.

4. Worked through Van Riebeeck's diaries : objective, but now and then a comment that had me roll with laughter. And, no, I cannot write it here. It would be considered racist. Let's just say he begged to be posted to India after just one year for reasons relating to the local population. He strung four adjectives one afer the other. The man was 100% gatvol. Seems my ancestral Uncle Harry die Strandloper really freaked him out.

5. Worked through Theal's massive History of South Africa (many volumes): decided he was objective, but standard issue 19th century racist; a Canadian, by the way.

6. Worked through Leibrandt's Letters from/to the Cape: decided he was objective

7. Worked through Bird's "Annals of Natal". Decided he was objective

8. Worked through Mostert's 700-odd page "Frontiers" and decided he was biased.

9. Worked through Marais' little green book of details on the Oosgrens : decided it was biased anti-Afrikaner (He was Wits)

9. Dragged heaps of books out of the university Library where anti-SA people had held jollification before.

10. Worked through countless 18 and 19th century books on Google Books, line by line

11. Made sure about genealogical connections that I distrusted a bit

10. Fixed up the language and the pictures to ensure copyright freedom (so far)

12. Added more interesting "In the Family " bits as I have discovered them

13 Traced my own Booyens family back to Germany just south of Denmark and "fetched" them there for the story. Spoke to a 350-year ago split off relative there!!

14. Improved language and style

15. Fixed the "technology": I previously had layout trouble with the software

16. Traced the Jordaans and Jouberts back further in France with the help of ex-French folks who now live in America. Very helpful.

17. Just this week, I finally found my wife's great grandmother in the books of the Middelburg Concentration camp. She's there with her two daughters and her sister. The sister's two sons are also there. One of the two is there with his wife and baby. Of the two sons, wife and baby, only the married man survives. I have the recorded deaths of the others. SO, yes, the family lived this stuff. I can now write that section with faith and evidence.

18. Just today, I found the grave of the great grandmother in Waterval-Boven. So the genealogy-story is pretty much complete.

19. For the WWII bit I have found my father-in-law's logbook with the detail of how his plane was disabled and he had to bale out over Northern Italy. He was, ironically, flying in support of the Canadian "Forgotten Army", bombing and strafing German lines, when he was hit by ack-ack. I have found a book describing how he was shot down an earlier time by the famous Jagdgeschwader 27. Just put "Jagdgeschwader 27" into Google and see for yourself....seriously...try it. Computer games are named after those guys.

20. ....and then I took a break for one week with friends and one week in Arizona at 117F...47.5 C!

I hope you have a clear picture of just how utterly consuming this effort is.

SO, now I'm finishing the editing from 1834 to 1850 and then the story writing picks up again for the last stretch. I probably have 100-150 pages to go. I'm also talking to publishing people.

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Harry

One Big Family

The thing with the Afrikaner is that the original population pool was not big. So everyone should expect to be multiply descended from the same folks. However, sometimes it gets silly. My mother is three times descended from the immigrant who brought my FATHER's name to the country. My father has him only once in his own tree. My wife is descended more times from my mother's original immigrant namesake than what my mother is.

...and almost all Afrikaners have the Van der Merwes and Cloetes multiple times.

The other thing is that they all have slave ancestors and need to get used to the idea. There is almost always an Indonesian, an Indian and the odd Angolan slave in there somewhere. They also all have at least SOME Khoekhoe blood.

As best I can tell, Heese's estimate of 7% is too high. I think my family is quite representative and I put it closer to 2% - 3% if you just count every generation as halving the contribution. But I like that bit. It is very interesting and makes the story. Now I'm the one with the slave ancestors, and NOT Mbeki!!!! I like that moral high ground for a change. But then, my slave ancestors had slaves themselves :huh::);)...don't you just love it when political stereotypes bite the dust?

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Island Life

Harry - one word: WOW!

Thanks for the update, and can't wait to read the finished version.

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jen1
STATUS REPORT

6. Worked through Leibrandt's Letters from/to the Cape: decided he was objective

Harry, which Leibrandt is this? I have been working on the Leibrandt family tree, My Dads mother was a Leibrandt, and I have an extensive family tree for them including pictures of the 'old" homes and farms they left in Germany to come to SA, so I would be interested in these!

thanks

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Harry

Jen1,

I am referring to

Precis of the Archives of the Cape of Good Hope

By Cape of Good Hope (South Africa). Archives, H. C. V. Leibbrandt, Jan van Riebeeck

Published by W. A. Richards, 1902

It has zero genealogical info about Leibbrandt.

It's all about the communications with the Cape Settlement

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Harry

STATUS REPORT

Now that I can post again properly, I thought I'd give a quick status report:

I'm at around page 300 in 1895 at the Jameson Raid and all the grandparents are being born. My wife has one great-uncle who takes part in the Raid and is wounded and captured and faces being hanged. (It is also my wife's family that was hanged at slagtersnek!). His older half-brother, meanwhile, is the editor of the Graaff-Reinetter newspaper, the only Afrikaans newspaper in the East Cape, which absolute climbs into Cecil John Rhodes. These guys were Irishmen.

I quote Mark Twain, and other American authors, who were in South Africa at the time.

Twain suggests (at the time) that, considering their lousy performance in the First Boer War and the Jameson Raid, if the British wanted to defeat 8,000 Boere then they would have to send 240,000 men...thirty Brits per Boer. Of course, in the event they sent their entire army and that of Canada and that of Australia and that of Rhodesia and heap of volunteer groups....almost 500,000.

The other author complains that the British news media has been monstrously unfair to the Boere. What else on earth is new? It has always been the same story since 1800, with the advent of the non-denominational London Missionary Society.

From here on my problem is not going to be the writing. It is going to be copyright problems on photos as I go past the "70 years ago" point.

Also, I won't be able to rely on Google Books so much, because they cannot scan books of less than 70 years without publisher agreement.

That will delay me as I order books of evidence via inter-library loans.

Meanwhile I have figured out which German pilot shot my father-in-law's Spitfire down in September 1943. I also have a picture of the place he got shot down, sent to me by a generous Turk who just so happens to live there and picked up my discussion with the air force historians. An author of books on WWII has also approached me for input of the battles in that theatre. SO, strange but fun things happen when one does this stuff.

I also found out that folks were pulling these present "mortgage meltdown" stunts back in 1865. My wife's great-grandmother (locally born daughter of a British soldier who fought in SA BEFORE the 1820 Settlers) lost her estate in such a process. The loans against the house were almost six times the value of the house. Yet, her husband went on buying on credit!...and then he died..leaving her with 5 mouths to feed and a sixth on the way...and that on five pounds a month.

This is pretty much what is going on now in the US financial mess. The more the world changes the more it stays the same. Folks knew this stuff back in 1865....how the devil do they keep making these mistakes?? History has lots and Lots and LOTS of lessons.

Thought for the day from none other than Mark Twain:

"I have studied the Boer....The most delicious edible in South Africa is 'biltong'....It is the Boer's main standby. He has a passion for it, and he is right".

-----Mark Twain : Following the Equator (1897)

His solution for capturing Boere is to make 30-foot stack of Bibles and biltong. (!...hmmm)

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Harry

Help needed with picture:

1. I was wondering if anyone had a decent photo of Majuba, just south of Volksrust which they'd be prepared to let me use in the book. Ideally the picture would show the mountain from the low ground below the highlands, looking from the east. Pictures of Laing's Nek would also be useful, as would any of Spioenkop. I have one of Spioenkop, but it is just not up to scratch.

The issue here is RIGHTS. I need to have the right to use the pictures in the book, so even many Wikipedia pictures (etc.) are NOT allowed for use. I can find many pictures of what I need. The issue is to find ones I MAY USE. Naturally proper recognition will be given.

2. I'm also wondering if anyone lives near the Paardeberg area and might be stopping at the Boer Memorial/Gravesite. I seem to recall it combines Paardeberg and Magersfontein, but I'm under correction. I want to write up a little section about the British "bugler boy" that the Boere buried with their own men. I knw I had to drive a distance from Magersfontein in the Free State direction to get to the site. The British dead of Magersfontein are buried where they fell, along with the Scandinavians who suffered so badly in that battle. I also know that a namesake of mine is buried there.

At present I am busy with the Cape Rebels and their story, which plays itself off in the Middleburg/Graaff-Reinet district where my grandparents grew up in the Great Boer War. My grandfather used to tell me about the British ambulance wagons and how they transported their dead from the Battle of Stormberg, northeast of the farm. He was 7-1/2 years old at the time.

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johankok
One Big Family

The other thing is that they all have slave ancestors and need to get used to the idea. There is almost always an Indonesian, an Indian and the odd Angolan slave in there somewhere. They also all have at least SOME Khoekhoe blood.

Harry, you missed the masbiekers -- Mozambican slaves. - a good number with Afrikaans names and surnames today.

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Soz

Harry,

It's the first time I've read this post and I've been rivetted for the past 3 hours. You must let me know when the book finally comes out. I'll have to get at least a few copies.

Thanks for all your hard work in keeping our history alive.

Soz

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Sheldon

Harry, thanks so much for posting this incredible story. I have always enjoyed history, and this has helped fill in a lot of the gaps. As an 1820 settler descendant, I think our families must have crossed paths over the years. Good luck with the book!

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Harry

Sheldon,

In the actual book I make a particular point of the fact that the British Settlers were in the same mess as the Afrikaners of their time, having been abused by the British Government as a human barrier against the amaXhosa. They were also pretty quick to marry among the two groups. Some young British guys married the daughters of the Afrikaner men who drove them by ox-wagon from Algoa Bay to the Suurveld! There was a prescribed route and schedule by which they were supposed to be taken, by the way. The one schedule speciefies that they should be taken past my Grobler ancestor's brother's abandoned farm...he had been tortured to death by the amaXhosa some years before.

I plot my wife's Settler family through this thing (her ancestral Bowles brother was murdered by the amaXhosa in Mlanjeni's War). I follow other British Settlers as they actually join the Great Trek and fight at Blood River. The wife's earliest British ancestor is a soldier in late 1818 and fights at the key battle of Grahamstown in 1819. In the end she has one Settler ancestor, two British soldiers and one Welsh teacher as immigrant ancestors. The rest are stoere Boere whom we trace back to 1630 in Europe.

My own Afrikaner family has one of the very earliest Afrikaner-English marriages when a brother's daughter marriages a British (actually Scottish) soldier in 1823 in the Little Karroo area. He is actually the earliest English blood in our collective families, having arrived in 1816.

Some detail for you:

Isaac Wiggill: He sailed in Dec 1819 from Bristol in the "Kennersley Castle" and arrived at Algoa Bay in April 1820. He was 38 years old and his wife (31) was Elizabeth. He was a carpenter. He had chldren Elijah(8), George (3), Joseph (3), Elizabeth (1). He was part of Bradshaw's party. The were located in Lemon Valley on the Torrens River (just north of the present Trappe's Valley train station). They named it New Gloucester, since the party of 64 members came from Gloucestershire. Richard Bradshaw led the party.

Eli Wiggill: 1811-1886. A son of Isaac Wiggill, He was married Susannah Bentley (daughter of Francis) in 1832. He assited at the Impukani Mission in 1835 and was later in charge of the Mirametsu Mission.

Soz, Thanks for for the interest and feedback.

Harry, thanks so much for posting this incredible story. I have always enjoyed history, and this has helped fill in a lot of the gaps. As an 1820 settler descendant, I think our families must have crossed paths over the years. Good luck with the book!

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Sheldon

Thanks Harry - fascinating stuff. I did some digging into my family tree a few years back, and Issac is indeed my great x5 Grandfather. (Think I may have missed a great there!). Interstingly, Eli Wiggill converted to Mormonism, and moved to Utah with the entire Wiggill clan apart from my Great Great Great Grandfather who remained a protestant Christian, and who went on to father a sizeable clan all on his own here in SA. As a result, I have hundreds of distant cousins in Salt Lake City! I am one quarter Afrikaans myself, so maybe I too have some slave blood in me!

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Harry

Update

I thought I should post a short update again.

As for writing the book, I am at page 390 using American Letter sized pages and 10 point font.

In terms of history I am at 1902, just after the Great Anglo-Boer War.

I have called a halt there for a while in order to go back over the work done in the genealogy department and make sure all is 100%. I have also called a halt to implement the changes my trial readers have asked for. From here on the entire game changes dramatically, so it is a good point to call a temporary halt.

Among the things that have emerged over the past several months are:

1. My Scheepers and Bezuidenhout ancestors have stepped forward ("from the grave" so to speak). It turns out my ancestor Coenraad Bezuidenhout was none other than the one who fled to the protection of amaXhosa king Ngqika (Gaika) in 1799 after the Van Jaarsveld Rebellion. It was Coenraad who reputedly made the amaGqunukhwebe chief Cungwa (Congo) tread his flour mill himself personally after his warriors had rustled Coen's cattle. (Tawwe Boere!?). He also reputedly helped the 7-foot giant Coenraad de Buys to abduct chief Langa's new young wife in 1793 ! De Buys eventually married Ngqika's maother, Nyese. Thereby he became a leading figure in the amaXhosa world and the main adviser to the amaXhosa King. - dit was anner tye daai! The Brits would not let him into the colony because of his mixed marriage! I have it black on white in their own words. They put a 200 pound bounty on the heads of the two Coenraads for their involvement in the Van Jaarsveld rebellion of 1799. - I have difficult ancestors.

2. Coenraad Bezuidenhout's two brothers were:

(1) Frederik, none other than the one whose death started the Slagtersnek rebellion (1815) and

(2) Johannes, the one who was killed in the end. His wife was wounded twice by the Brits.

I have the court transcripts....fascinating. The plot was dreamt up on the farm of my wife's ancestor Pieter Johannes Jordaan. It was from there that they set out to try and get Ngqika's help against the British. It is Pieter Jordaan's brother, George, who is impaled by Dingane on 6 Feb 1838.

3. The mothers of Coenraad Bezuidenhout and Coenraad de Buys were two Scheepers sisters. The older brother of the two ladies, Gerrit, was one of the earliest guys on the eastern frontier. Gerrit's sons, one of whom is also a direct ancestor (twice), settled at the foot of what is today known as the Cockscomb mountain in the Great Winterhoek range, south of Steytlerville in the South Cape - the southernmost limit of the Karoo. In fact the farm is still there, right on the Uitenhage-Steytlerville gravel road.

There, on a day in the last week of July 1799, the family was massacred by renegade "Hottentots" under Speelman, supported by Cungwa's amaGqunukhwebe from the general area of today's Alexandria. The folks who live in PE will know about Congoskraal beyond Sunday's River - that was Cungwa's place. This is the same Speelman that the SA government now is trying to present as a hero. He was a common murderer.

It was when the governor in the Cape heard about that massacre that he rushed off to the border and ignominiously bought peace with the amaXhosa by physically paying tribute to them - possibly the worst humiliation of British arms ever. His general on the front, Vandeleur, sat on the beach at the future PE and bewailed his fate. I have his letters - pathetic. The next governor was clearly outraged, but he was removed from office for being corrupt. That First British Occuption was Britain's "Blackhawk Down" - a scandalous disaster, no matter which way people try to spin it....and believe me they did.

2. Two years later my ancestor, Field-cornet Stephanus Naude, was murdered, reputedly by Stuurman's "Hottentots", between Petersburg and Graaff-Reinet. This was the moment upon which the hated magistrate Maynier was removed from power and had to defend himself against accusations that he had set up that murder. He was innocent, but it was the end of Maynier - finally. The Brits turned against him and were suddenly friends with the Afrikaners, having finally understood what the latter had been on about for 7 years. In the wake of this, the Boere locked up in the castle at the Cape for their participation in the Van Jaarsveld rebellion were set free - no questions asked. It was "kiss and make up" time for Britain.

I could not conceivably leave such stuff out of the story, so I have spent time building it in. In essence, the massacre of my ancestral family started the Third Frontier "War" and the murder of my direct ancestor spelled the end of Maynier and the 180 degree turnabout in British Policy towards Afrikaners.

I have two US trial readers: a Democrat and a Republican.

The Democrat has read my work to where I have written and he is staggered. He feels it has "profoundly affected" him. My detailed description of how the one Boer War rebel faced his execution and my detailed listing of relatives who died in the concentration camps (35 out of 52 of my family name died there) really "got to him". I list them by name, along with their concentration camp numbers.

The Republican has read to the end of Blood River Battle, and describes my work on the Great Trek up to that Battle as: "Sweaty, passionate, powerful and definig".

As I have said before - this is Michener's "Covenant", but with REAL people and REAL events with FULL evidence by my actual ancestors and their relations.....and lots of pictures.

Now I have to do the last roughly 100 years. I live on Google Books, Internet Archive, Open Library and the Simon Fraser University Library system. The latter has a massive collection of South Africa books.

I am swimming in books.

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Jos

Doe zoo voort. Sien uit na die finale finale uitgawe!

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Harry

Update

We have just returned from a 3 week visit to Europe. It was built around visits to some ancestral origins, for use in the book. We also visited the origin of the first ever true South African settler of European origin, Jacob Cloete (1657).

It seems like almost all Afrikaners have him at least once in their family trees. He occurs many times in my son's tree.

The most intriguing aspect was the visit to Provence, France to look at the origins of our Jourdan, Joubert, Minnaar and Malan ancestors. It is clear that our Provence ancestors were Vaudois ( "People of the Valley"). These people settled in the Luberon area around 1495 and originally came from the area of Freysinniers at the upper streams of the Durance River. They are known as Valdese in Italy, where they live in nextdoor Piedmont. They had been persecuted repeatedly by the Catholic Church back to the years around 1000-1200.

Let me make this clear - THEY WERE NOT REGULAR NORTHERN EUROPEAN PROTESTANTS. They were of the "Original Church" and the Dutch East India Company made a separate decision to also inlcude them as "Co-religionists". They referred to them as "Piedmontese and Valluyden". They still today see themselves as predating the Catholic Church. The Germans call them Waldensers. A common fallacy today is to think they were followers of some Frenchman in Lyon called Waldo...it does not take much to realise that is junk. "Vaudois" is not derived from "Waldo"; it literally means "Valley People".

And so it happened that our hosts took us to their home and set us down under a proper prieël with "druiwe wat hang" and served us lunch with wine and cheese platter (while an SA-made Barracuda cleaned their pool next to us). That afternoon they took us to the Jourdan part of the little town. The most intriguing thing was the olive oil mill. This is none other than the mill that Louis XIV forced them to break down because they had held Protestant services in the room above it. One can read about this mill in several books.

...and there....displayed in the little museum above the mill, was the story of the SA Luberon Huguenots on the ship China, complete with a bottle of SA Cabriere labeled Pierre Jourdan.

The persecution hell that these people lived through leaves one utterly speechless. No wonder they were psychologically so unbelievably tough. Ironically, the man who led their massacre was named Maynier (The Count of Oppède), just like the man who caused their descendants on the Cape Eastern frontier so much misery between 1793 and 1803.

I have now traced their refugee path from the Luberon up the Durance River to Grenoble, Chambery, Geneve, Schaffhausen and Frankfurt [ I have actual church records for the last three towns, showing they passd there]. From there they went to Rotterdam. Some elected to stay in Europe. I have driven the route from Chambery to the Luberon in the reverse direction to see for myself...it is quite something.

I must say, though, that it is seriously weird in 2009 to stand in a little road, exactly beteen the vinyards of my wife's Jordaans on the left and my own Jouberts on the right.....back in 1687!! The piece of land to the right is still called Joubert today!! Things move slowly in those parts, and the towns still look very much like in the 1500s, except for the telephone lines and road signs. The difference between the outsides and insides of the homes is striking.

The people are truly wonderful. When I stopped to ask a farmer where the "Rue des Huguenots" was, he held up his hand in a "stop" gesture, and cut a huge bunch of grapes to give to our son. Then he took out a map and looked for the road, but it would not show. SO, he dropped all, got in his car, and actually escorted us several kilometers through vineyards to the narrow "Chemin des Huguenots"....really wonderful people!!

I am ready to pick up the writing in 1945 on page 430 where I had left it in middle August, a month ago. But first I have to fix up the Huguenot story and add one or two of the several thousand photos I took on our roughly 3500 km trip from near Denmark to Marseille, mostly along smaller roads.

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Pierre

Harry your journey on the road less traveled is fascinating.

Sounds like a history detectives story one would expect on Discovery channel.

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Harry

Loerie Update

Some folks have contacted me with a view to an update on where I am at this time with the writing of the "Loerie Book".

The simple answer is that I have finished with WWII and its immediate aftermath. I am now busy writing the Chapter dedicated to the "Uhuru" period...roughly the quarter century from 1950 to 1974; from the first independence rumbles in "Rest of Africa" to the fall of the Portuguese colonies. The difficulty with this period is acess to photos and documents. Ordinary life has also intruded over the last few months to slow me down a bit, but I'm now writing as fast as possible again.

I'm still urgently looking for help on photos:

It would be ever so wonderful if someone could help me get a photo of the sisal barriers along the south bank of the Limpopo east of Beit Bridge and the electric fence along the Mocambique border in the Kruger Park. I'm on the other side of the planet with no hope of getting those pictures and no friends or family living anywhere near that part of the world. I need those pictures to write the section that asks the very valid question of why people from outside South Africa braved those to "get into Apartheid"

I have to point out that I CANNOT USE PHOTOS OFF THE INTERNET. I need to get the rights to use the photos, so referring me to a website actually does not help unless I have a fighting chance of getting the person to give me those rights. In the end it is often easier to just go take a new photo. My family and various folks have prviously helped in this regard. However, I have not been able to get anyone to help in Far Northern Transvaal.

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Harry

Loerie Update

Just a note to say that I have finished the period 1950-1973 ( just before the Angolan meltdown)

If there is anyone who was on any of the campaigns in Angola and would like to provide some small bits of info for me to include in my sketch of that era, just e-mail me. Any OWN photographs from that period would be most welcome.

The end of this work is in sight after more than three years of serious writing and more than 4 years since I put something on the internet. My two American trial readers are still very much on board after 500 pages.

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Adele

Harry what type of photos are you looking for from that era in Angola? I think a LOT of the men may have military type photos but maybe there where some photo geniuses out there and took of the town and other areas.

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Nirak

Will ask my mom, but I think she only has photos of when my dad was in Walvis Bay before going to the Angolan border.

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Harry

Adele & Nirak,

I need photos of military nature inside Angola. I can NOT use photos that are on the web unless the very specifically have been placed in the public domain, either by a statement to that effect or through the passage of time, which time varies from country to country.

I was there in 1974 and have pre-war photos.

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Nirak

I won't be able to help then. My dad never took photos while in Angola, or if he did, it was never passed on to us.

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Hendie

Harry, skryf vir Martin Booyens. Hy was in die parabats en ek is seker hy was ook in Angola. Dalk het hy fotos.

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Harry

Hendie,

ek nie geweet van Martin se parabat agtergrond nie. Ek sal hom vra.

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