I've been a subscriber to SAW for some years, and have recently discovered this forum for South Africans in Canada. I hope you won't mind my questions. I'm not South African, but a Canadian from Toronto (now in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario) who has for many years longed to move to South Africa! It's mainly because of my love of South African flora - having studied it for many years, and grown some of it in the garden and in the greenhouse, I almost feel that I know parts of the country. Yet our first trip there will not be until later this year or early next. My husband is retired and I am thinking of retirement to spend more time with him (we are both university professors), so if we did move, it would not be to take jobs, but to enjoy life (which to me means gardening). A major concern is of course health care, as maintaining eligibility here - OHIP for us - means spending 6 months in Canada. I'd really rather not do the 6 month visit thing unless absolutely necessary, but it is hard for a Canadian to get used to the idea of uncertain health care. We do have private health insurance, but of course it "kicks in" after the provincial part is paid. How it works in a practical sense for an overseas Canadian I've no idea.

Actually I have so many questions I hardly know where to start, or even whether you are willing to answer them. I'll mention a couple anyway: because I'm so keen on going, I have a hard time understanding why South Africans are still leaving their country. Have things not improved there after apartheid, not only for people of colour, but for the minority of whites whose power must have been at best tense and uncertain? I understand that health care here is more accessible, but surely given time there may be a national health care in South Africa? Is there a worry that South Africa, under the ruling majority, might become another Zimbabwe? From my studies of the climate and vegetation, the area of most interest to me is the Eastern Cape, in the region of East London. My impression is that it's a rather poor area, but I hope not any more unsafe than elsewhere. It is certainly very beautiful.

I'd be very grateful for your impressions of what it could be like for a Canadian to move to South Africa. A British-Canadian friend of ours who spent a number of years as an engineer in Durban tells me that many South Africans are moving back; certainly he would like to. It seems to me that with North American currency that would be a beneficial move, as far as standard of living goes. Yet perhaps there are serious drawbacks that I cannot see. In fact, I have so many questions, so many details I'd like to explore that I hardly know where to begin. I'm almost afraid of missing the boat, so to speak. So, if you are willing to correspond about this a bit, or to suggest how I might find someone to address my questions, I'd be very much obliged. And if you would prefer to not answer, of course I understand and accept that.

Sincerely,

Nancy

You are very welcome to ask Nancy. We welcome anybody who wants to know more about South Africa as well. We are not, as many may think against our beautiful country, but circumstances has forced many of us to depart.


You really have to see both sides of the story. Yes things have improved, but not in the areas where the medium term outlook for that minority is in any way optimistic, especially for those of us with children. A kind of reverse discrimination has set in which makes it very difficult for white students to gain access to the tertiary educational institutions, and even if they do, once they get a qualification, it is frowned upon by the rest of the western world. Employment in the public and corporate sectors favour the "oppressed" peoples to the extent that it is almost impossible for a white person to get promoted to any position of authority. What happens is that white "experts" are employed on contactual agreements at exhorbitant rates, effectively "milking the system". For how long that would be possible, I am not sure. On the up side, it is absolutely the market for the entrepeneur, but at what cost? Anarchy and violence is still the order of the day, and although the news services are quite tame about it, one has only to speak to recent immigrants to be reminded of why you left in the first place.


Well, with a health minister who recently said in London that there is no money for Aids medication because the country has to buy submarines to ward off a potential invasion from the USA, what kind of health system can you expect? (Read that article here).


That possibility is not at all preposterous!


Unfortunately, although it has some of South Africa's most beautiful natural resources, that is also the cradle of much of the violence that is still rife in South Africa today. I would avoid the Eastern Cape. Rather go the the Western Cape - that is by far still the "safest" part of the country at the moment.


I would personally not recommend it right now. I think the reasons I have already given speak for themselves. And yes, there ARE South Africans who are moving back. Immigration to another country is a very traumatic experience, and the ill-prepared often find it too daunting.

These are my personal opinions and may not reflect that of the other members of this forum, but I will leave it to my South African friends to respond with their own opinions.

I'll go with Hendie! Presently...I don't think it is a good idea to go, and I can not tell you when this will change...if ever!

My opinion, for what it's worth. Nancy, since you and your husband are retired (and, I assume you aren't taking children with), then I don't see any reason not to go, as long as you know the risks, and are careful where you actually live. I agree with Hendie that the Western Cape is probably your best bet, and anyway there is the most beautiful flora there (it is, after all, the birth place of the protea), and the world famous Kirstenbosch Gardens are situated in Cape Town. If you can live on the Westcoast, however, then that would probably be the best place, safety wise. My sister and her husband have just moved to Langebaan on the Westcoast and report that they feel better there.

I have no idea about medical aid there at present, or how the system works. We always had subsidized medical aid through my husbands job, and were able to use a private doctor and private hospitals.

There is definitely a reverse apartheid atmosphere, but one can live with it as long as you don't have to work or study there. Crime is rampant, as Hendie pointed out, and especially violent crime. Last I read, one in four women can expect to be raped in their lifetime. Then there are the carjackings, the violent home invasions and on top of all that, we have violent extremist groups like PAGAD making 'political' life just as miserable. Again, no reason not to go, but be aware of the risks.

South Africa is a beautiful country, and I hope that one day things will settle down, and the people can reap the rewards of it's beauty and all the resources that can potentially be utilized to make it better than any other country in Africa - although I think it is already .

Whatever you decide, it warms my heart that you love our country, or at least it's flora, without ever having been there. All the best. Debbie

Dear Nancy

By asking your questions you actually showed remarkable insight into the problems of our beautiful home country.

Your number one concern should be your safety. I have said for a long time now that living in South Africa is like playing Russian roulette, only the barrel is getting smaller as you go on.

Healthwise - it is now very difficult to afford medical care, and especially medical funds. Previously it used to cover all your expenses, now you will most likely be limited in the medicine you may get per year, as well as the number of doctor's visits. Good news though, especially if your are from BC, is that you will not have to wait to see a specialist. The SA Government changed the policy on health care a while ago which very few people know about. No medical aid fund may refuse you joining them. That would then mean that they have to accept all people, with or without AIDS, and they all have to pay the same rate. Guess who is now subsidising the poor? You do not want to go to provincial hospitals, at night the nurses steal your belongings while you are sleeping. The president does not know where AIDS come from, the Minister of Health has no idea what she is doing, so not a good scenario overall.

Why do you want to move there? Why do you not go there for an extended stay? It is so cheap when you go there with dollars. If you want to go and take in the scenery, then go and visit. We did not move here for the scenery or the snow, it was because of serious structural problems in the country.

There are those that ask whether SA will go the route of Zimbabwe. I am married to a Zimbabwean. Years ago, on my first visit to that beautiful country, I was amazed by the faith that these people had that things will be OK. I asked them if they are not scared, they said no. Alas, it is the story of Africa. My in-laws lost their farms and can no longer support the many families they had on their farm. Will it happen in SA? I think it is a matter of time only. And it makes me sad to say it. As long as you are white (lets be honest here), drive a car and have a full stomach you are infinitely better off than many millions of people in SA and the whole Southern African region. There is a huge gap between you and them. How will someone who received inferior education, if any at all, who has never worked in a formal environment, be able to sustain and improve his own life?

Enough being so pessimistic.

Do you know about the Canadian phtographer that goes to Namaqualand every year and presents photography courses. He teamed up with a lady in a small town in Namaqualand and provide live-in services for the duration of the course. Apparently it is a very special experience.

Hope this helps.

Hi Nancy

I am currently living in the Western Cape and we are thinking of moving to Cananda. First of all. You are welcome to stay with us if you are thinking of visiting South Africa to see how things are.
Medical: yes the medical aid cannot refuse you, but if you cannot provide prove that you were part of a medical aid for the past 20 -30 years, you must pay an additional monthly amount. I do not know if Canadian medial history counts. If want to use the goverment doctors and hospitals (I hope you do not have to!), you can easily wait for a whole day in the waiting room.

The main two reasons for me wanting to leave SA, is crime and future for my children.

Crime: There is NO respect for life in SA. With an unemployment rate of 41% (Official!?) crime is the order of the day. And they will take anything anywhere and if you resist, they will kill you, eve for a cellphone of R10. The latest is the bash and grap a traffic lights. They will smash your car's window and take what ever they can while you are waiting in the traffic at the trafic light. Every body is to scared to do anything because they WILL kill you.

Future: It is basically imposible for a White male to get a job. So there is no point in my son (who does not deserve it) to go to school or study.

I can go on for ever, but PLEASE come and see before you decide to move here. Visit www.news24.com or www.iafrica.com for the daily news to get a good feel.

Arniel

Hi Arniel,

Where abouts in Canada are you hoping to move to? What is your time-line/hoped for arrival date?

I live in Calgary.

Ian.

Hey, Eben. I love Namaqualand. We used to live in Melkbosstrand and often took drives up the coast and some inland. My sister used to live in Ageneys near Springbok.

Good luck with your arrangements to come to Canada. It's a huge undertaking, very stressful to leave one's family, friends, and country. But, for us, it's been worth it.

I am truly grateful for all your reasoned replies. Each of you has contributed something very special to my understanding of your country, though I find myself still full of questions. It must be very painful to see this happening to such a magnificent country and wonder where it will end. South Africa has the potential for being the most balanced kind of democracy with people of different races living in complete harmony, each contributing its special strengths in all areas.

As to why I want to move there: perhaps no one who isn't passionate about gardening can understand why someone becomes obssessive about plants: I can only compare it to people who collect orchids, concentrating on a single family or even genus until their greenhouse has 2 or 3 thousand, or others who take great risks in dangerous places to find an elusive species for the sake of conservation or botanical collections. My passion has been for years South African plants. You already know how remarkably varied, unique and rich are the South African floral treasures. Some of us here have learned through experimentation which species will adapt to our conditions but we are still limited. Many of the most incredible (Protea, Leucospermum, and the heaths) are really only possible in parts of California.

The Eastern Cape appeals to me (without having gone there) because it is frost-free and so much grows there from temperate to tropical (like the Jade Vine - Strongylodon). It is also closer to the Drakensburg range, where so many hardier versions of tender plants find their counterpart, and I think they deserve more study for gardeners in colder climates.

The Western Cape and Garden Route is equally fascinating, as Debbie points out; it's just that it does get some frost, which limits some of the plants, and it is drier. But that perhaps shouldn't be the deciding factor, it's mere gardener's greed. We have, by the way, no children to worry about, it's just one middle-aged woman and an elderly man, both quite game.

I have a book by Sima Eliovson on Namaqualand (as well as her other books) and the flowers there are extraordinary. I hadn't heard about the Canadian photographer, but would like to look into finding some pictures by him. Do you have his name, Galpil?

We just watched a Canadian Film Board video called Zandile, about people living in shantytowns outside of Durban. One thing struck me (other than the bias of the producers) was that a girl was singing about killing whites ("now its our turn to kill the whites") and none of these directors even dared to ask her why, or how she imagined vicious behaviour would improve her world, nor how representative she thought her attitude was of others in her community.

Now for more questions, if I may: to Galpil, I am not sure I understand what you say about BC, unless you mean for immigration to Canada? But your point is taken about spending time there rather than a full move. In fact, it would be ideal (perpetual summer!) except it means maintaining 2 households. Living in a condo here for the other months is not desirable for a gardener. And leaving each house unoccupied for half a year sounds risky. If I can figure out how to stay 6 months in each country without two houses, I'd be happy with that solution especially because all our Canadian health care would be ensured.

As to land, my impression is that there is a danger of farms being expropriated, but I can't base that on anything concrete. I read about one instance, but the legal circumstances were not described. It begs the question of all property being expropriated and handed over.

What do others think of this: if SA improves, rather than deteriorating, could the Western Cape and perhaps other coastal areas become another Riviera for Europeans? Look what happened in Spain? From a fascist government to Southern Spain being colonized by masses of English, and house prices now quite high on postage stamp lots. The gamble is whether investing in a property in SA (even if not living there 12 months) is too risky or if it is rather farsighted.

The question of labour: Galpil's Zimbabwean story is very much to the point - it is counterproductive to confiscate farms that are up and running and supporting the labour that works them. If I garden there, I'll certainly need labour even for 1 or 2 hectares of land.

I've read the 1 in 4 rape statistic: there must be some demographic statistics as well - which parts of SA are the most problematic, and which races are targeted. I should actually think poor black women are more vulnerable than white women, but is it possible white women are specifically targeted? Everywhere?

Are the disgruntled or more militant factions to be found everywhere in SA? There is some similarity between relations between indigenous peoples here and in SA; yet it seems unlikely that native people here will end up causing an uprising (they are also a minority which makes a difference). My question though is could one consider a majority of black people to be militant, or just eager for a fair crack at education and jobs?

To something more positive: can anyone recommend some SA films available here, say in Toronto? Not particularly documentaries, but fictional. I have located a copy of South African Gardens and look forward to getting that, but would also like to know more about the culture(s). The only author we really know is Coetzee, I'm ashamed to say.

And lastly, I am most touched by Arniel's offer of a stay with them. There is hardly any better way to know a country than through a stay with its people, and it may help you too to brainstorm a Canuck. May I contact you off-forum to discuss it? In case I cannot contact you, my email is flora@niagara.com

I'm sorry, friends, for such a very long note: it's been at least 10 years that I've had these and more questions roiling in my head, and it's hard to be brief when I want to know just everything from people themselves, and not only impressions as a tourist.

This report from Robin Elliot of DollarMakers.com in his latest newsletter South Africans International of January 17, 2003, hot off the press :

---

We just returned from two weeks in South Africa, where we did seminars for people intending to emigrate to Canada and met with SA business owners and friends, and, of course family.

I thought you might be interested in some of my impressions:

SA is still a land of remarkable contrast. Beautifully groomed and dressed women who know what the inside of a real hairdressing salon looks like and understand color coordination and how to avoid obesity, eat in world class restaurants and frequent upmarket malls. Brooklyn mall and Menlyn mall in Pretoria, a city of half a million people, have no equal in Vancouver with our 1.8 million.

The rich in SA get richer and the poor get poorer and the middle class fades away fast as the government aligns itself strongly with the "Axis of Evil". The Health Minister visits Iraq to offer SA help there; a Radio 702 announcer publicly calls George W. Bush a ""Stupid Imbecile", the SA Broadcasting Associating is considering dropping CNN in favor of Al Jezeera, (pro Osama Bin Laden station), Desmond Tutu attacks the U.S. on the radio, the Minister of health suggests SA stops spending money on Aids and instead invests in arms in case America attacks SA, the North Korean Ambassador to SA is interviewed on Radio 702, Mbeki gets a world "Aids Expert" to address the SA Department of Health and tell them that Aids is not caused by HIV or any virus. Gadaffi visits SA with an entourage of 30 armored vehicles.

And while Rika visited breathtakingly beautiful Knysna and we enjoyed wonderful weather, over 400 children were lost and abandoned on Durban beaches over Christmas and 50 children never found their parents. And 30 people drowned in the ocean over the summer holidays, while a mere one thousand three hundred died in automobile accidents.

The unofficial DAILY MURDER RATE in SA now stands at 120 people murdered PER DAY. One is warned to keep your car window open just a crack - that way, it's more difficult for attackers to break the window with a spark plug and get at you. The jails are 600% full. I took a photo of a demonstration of a flamethrower, self-protection pistol now available in a security store in a mall. Cost to anyone who wants to buy one: US$35 (SAR350).

A radio advertisement says, "The South African Post Office: we will deliver, whatever it takes", yet we have had so much of the mail we sent to family in SA stolen that we no longer send any. The financial situation is touted as being better than that of the last ten years of the last government, yet there is not enough money for police (two squad cars for Pretoria), hospitals and other essential services.

We dined in a very upmarket restaurant the other night. At the next table was doctor Wouter Basson, internationally known as the infamous Doctor Death. Excellent restaurant service, exceptional food and ambience.

And a new product just can't be stopped, it's so sought-after: it's called Two Step and is a very effective poison for dogs. After ingesting it via a tasty morsel, the dog literally takes two steps and falls down dead. It is used to kill guard dogs and those pets who bark too much at night. Many pets were killed in Centurion just before we left.

Wow. That about sums it up, Hendie, doesn't it? There 's even too much of it, too many things, and too many statistics, for it to be one-sided. It still seems to be in the north eastern and eastern provinces though that these things are happening, doesn't it? I read about the car accident statistics, which are startling. My husband and I are wondering why it should be so - bad driving habits? bad roads? drunk driving? No one on the African websites mentions the demographics again, whether there is a racial bias in such accidents. I suppose an insider would know, but outsiders can't guess.

What is the possibility of the country being split like the Czech Republic and Slovakia into two republics?

Probably many people agree that George W. has some serious mental deficiencies and is not well adjusted socially. What is certain is that since he has been in office, the world has become a more violent place, full of hatred breeding more hatred, more threats, nation against nation and the disintegration of long-standing political unities. His own country, the great US, is in a shambles, and one wonders where all this is going to end. It's the age of the sociopath.

So for the present, I guess I'm going to have to take it that SA is a "nice place to visit, but couldn't survive to live there." But visit it I will, marking out what I hope will one day prove to be possible places to live should the situation ever improve.

Nancy,
In answer to your last two posts:

About the potential for South Africa to become a balanced democracy: This would be true if the peoples of the country would work together for the good of the country. Unfortunately the majority of the blacks are under the impression that the whites just had it good all those years before the "fall" of apartheid, and now that they are in power they expect everything to just suddenly prosper for them. I think those who understand that what the white people had was attained by hard work over many years are the vast minority. The current regime promised the people that they would all have houses and security and "freedom" once the ANC is in power. Very little of that has materialized, so now you have a disillusioned populace who is facing more hardship because of the high unemployment rate. Some time ago Time magazine published a rather dooming article about South Africa's future. They said, like you, that South Africa has a wonderful potential to be the economic giant of Africa, but the population lacks a work ethic. That sums up the plight of the South African economy rather well I think.

Cases of farms being expropriated in South Africa is still sporadic and "unofficial", but the campaign against the farming communities has been an ongoing fact for quite a few years now. Countless farmers and their families have been murdered on their farms over the past number of years. I do not have the statistics but it is quite staggering. If you consider going to live on a farm or an acrage, you have to be prepared to spend a fair chunk of your budget on fortifications and security. Not doing that is just dumb.

As for the Western Cape becoming an African Riviera, I don't know. The problems in Spain was at least among a fairly homogenous population, but in South Africa (all of Africa in fact) the black man has an intense hatred for the white man (in general, there are4 exceptions). There is no concern for whether you are a tourist who is bringing foreign income into the country or a local white. Both are treated with the same disdain.

With regard to your mention of rape statistics and your question about racial targeting: Unfortunately this is the one area where there is no discrimination between the races, or even gender. Rape and purposeful infection with Aids is indiscriminate. EVERYONE is at risk here. You mentioned that it's just you and your husband, two harmless retired people - well old people are unfortunately often the target of violence and plunder. You are defenceless see, so don't think that you would not attract attention.

Disgruntled and militant factions. There are areas where it is more dangerous to live than others, the Johannesburg-Pretoria area is notorious for the kind of things Robin wrote about, as is the Eastern Cape. However these factions are also organised and they make sure that they have representation in all the populated areas of the country.

You will not find any demographics or statistics about crime or accident figures. The government has shut down the media sites that used to carry statistics about crime and anarchy some time ago. The only news that you will get would be by word of mouth, and often that sounds just too horrible to believe.

There has been a rightwing effort for some years now to create a "volkstaat" ("state for the people") for whites exclusively, but I doubt very much that anything would come of that, or that the country would split. South Africa is part of Africa, and the sooner that westerners understand that the laws of Africa are different to the rest of the developed world, the better for all. I am not saying that Africa has a wrong system of ethics or values, it's just very different from western thinking.

Many people mistake the kind of discourse that I have entered into here as negativism or pessimism and some of our fellow South Africans would even brand me a traitor or deserter. Fortunately, however, I am not alone - the vast majority of emigrants from South Africa are highly qualified professionals, people who observe things around them and have the guts (or the means) to do something about it. We all love South Africa very dearly and would love to be able to return. However with the evidence stacked up against it the way it is right now, makes it a very undesirable country to raise your kids in.

South Africa is a wonderful travel destination, but you have to be careful. Best would be, as you observed, to take Arniel up on her offer - get a local "streetwise" inhabitant of the country.

Do yourself a favour and go to http://www.crimeresearch.org.za/.

DebbieD, we have been in BC for two years already. Slowly getting used to it. Went to Fort Langley today and wandered in all the little shops.

We almost live on Crescent Beach in the summer and go there for a walk/cycle/swim every evening after I arrive home from work. We are safe, so much to be thankful for.

By the way, the most beautiful flowers are those fuschias just behind my barbecue in Paarl. Every evening in the summer I would stand in awe at their beauty when, after the irrigation came on, the drops of water would hang from them like diamonds.

Ag nee mense, hierdie hele gesprek maak my morbied.... Ek gaan nou liewer muskadel gooi. Iemand lus???

Ja-nee Eben, nou maak jy my ook lus! Ek sal maar daai KWV Muskadel moet naderklap!

(For Nancy : when we get too homesick, we tend to grab the Muscadel, it's a fortified sweet wine [a little like ice wine, just better!] that it seems is only produced in South Africa, I had a really hard time to find some here in Calgary!)

Where did you find it, Hendie?

Debbie,

I found a bottle of Olifantsfontein Muscadel at Willow Park Wines and Spirits for $25!!

Hendie

Hi Ian

My company has a branch in Toronto. I will first try to get a transfer to them. I have heard that Calgary is also a beautiful place. I want to visit it on my LSD trip, but I must first save some money to do it.

Arniel

Typical, no matter where the conversation starts it ends up with KWV....

Is this good or bad..........?

Coming from a born and bred Paarlite ... it can only be good!

... oh! and by the way let's not forget just who it was who turned the subject to wine!

The Return of the Dark Continent
"whites will soon be extinct in Africa"
Max Hastings
The Daily Mail
13 August 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this controversial article, Max Hastings argues that the whites will soon be extinct in Africa. Its corrupt nations are going backwards, and the outside world couldn’t give a damn. The dark continent’s story will become an exclusively black disaster...
Among most British people, Robert Mugabe inspires much more anger than Saddam Hussein. Iraq’s leader murders his enemies out of sight. Whatever horrors he is brewing in his secret laboratories and factories, they have not yet been unleashed upon the world at large.
Robert Mugabe, by contrast, terrorizes his white subjects under floodlights. Farmers are driven from land they have tilled for decades. Brutality is the nation’s staple diet and heaven knows, there is little enough to eat. Zimbabwe is sinking into a slough of corruption, starvation and bankruptcy to satisfy the megalomania of one man.

neither Britain nor the United Nations will depose Mr Mugabe

If Tony Blair announced tomorrow that Britain intended to invade Zimbabwe and remove Mr. Mugabe from power, I suspect that the news would be far more enthusiastically received than a declaration war on Saddam Hussein.

Yet of course, neither Britain nor the United Nations will depose Mr Mugabe. Many miles and the colonial legacy divide us from his crumbling country. His tyranny poses no aggressive threat to the outside world. His victims are his own people.

All the sentiment expended upon Zimbabwe’s white farmers, most people In Britain recognize that their fate was sealed more than two decades ago when majority rule came to the former Rhodesia.

Since 1980, it has merely been a question of how long the dwindling number of Rhodesians could stick it. I know Zimbabwe well. After the bitterness of the civil war, there never seemed a realistic prospect that a multi-racial society would survive there for long. Or 100 years, the white man lorded in the old Rhodesia. Now a black tyranny does so.

The remaining whites will be driven out of Mugabe’s Zimbabwe. Be wise ones will leave while they still have the skin on their backs. Just or unjust, that is reality. I would go further and suggest that the game is up for the white man throughout Africa. It does not matter whether this is a good or bad thing - it represents the tide of history.

For four centuries, white immigrants and their descendants have pitched camp to Africa. ‘We belong here. we are as much Africans as any of Mugabe’s 'war veterans',’ a Zimbabwean farmer will say.

Yet, in the eyes of Africa this is not true. The white man is always the alien, the outsider, and the former ruler whose very competence is a painful embarrassment even to most educated black Africans. However much those Zimbabweans, or their South African counterparts, love the countries in which they live, few black Africans today acknowledge that the white man belongs among them. He is perceived as a leftover from past, flotsam drifting on the beach of history.

The remaining whites will not be driven out in a single dramatic purge. Over the next 30 years, they will simply be prodded, frightened and squeezed until they slip away piecemeal, as the children of good many lends of mine have done already. In a succession of lurches and surges, Africa is reverting to a dark continent.

African rulers have systematically removed 95 billion pounds from the continent since the colonial rulers departed

Over the past 40 years, since the colonial powers began to depart, all the worlds efforts to provide advice and aid have been frustrated by cultural resistance, lack of education, population explosion and, above all, corruption on a vast scale.

Many Western nations suffer from political corruption. But they are rich enough, and the corruption modest enough, and the corruption modest enough for their economies and their political systems to co-exist with it.

Across Africa, however, rulers have systematically stripped national treasuries of their wealth. It has recently been estimated that national rulers have illegally removed 95 billion pounds from the continent since the colonial rulers departed.

Such a figure puts 'cash for questions' in our own dear House of Commons into perspective, doesn’t it? We talk of sleaze yet it is inconceivable that Gordon Brown could divert 4 billion pounds from the Treasury’s resources to his private account in Zurich.

But such things are happening in Africa every year. No society can prosper amid corruption on is scale. We take for granted the honesty of our judges, accountants yes, even after Enron - banks and bureaucrats. Honesty is not only the best policy; it is indispensable if any economic system is to prosper.

In Africa, the only wholly successful modem industry is the theft of cash from businesses, aid funds, government coffers, utilities, mines, wildlife charities and for all we know church poor boxes.

In the days when I travelled in Africa a lot, an old hand in Nairobi explained a few home truths to me. ‘In this society, If you don’t use power to enrich yourself and your family you are not merely behaving foolishly, you are thought to be acting wickedly,’ he said.

‘There is absolutely no understanding here of the ideal of a community, of the people at large. There is only the family, the tribe and yourself.’
Almost every African state is ruled solely in the interests of its ruling clique.

There are a few glittering exceptions such as Nelson Mandela. But for most of the continent, that cynical piece of folk wisdom is as true today as it was 20 years ago. Almost every African state is ruled solely in the interests of its ruling clique.
National bankruptcy does nothing to diminish a bottomless appetite for first-class air travel and absurdly pretentious embassies abroad. Look at the roll call in London, some of the most expensive real estate in the capital is occupied by the diplomatic missions of some of the poorest nations in the world: Malawi in Grosvenor Street; Tanzania in Hertford Street; Zambia in Palace Gate; Zimbabwe in the Strand.

By almost every economic measure Africa has gone backwards, not forwards, since the 1960s. Three years ago, America’s then resident, Bill Clinton, toured the continent and delivered a series of supremely cynical speeches, proclaiming that the West would hence force be coming to Africa’s aid. It sounded like rubbish then and it is rubbish now.

The West has no intention of bailing out Africa, even if Blair has surges of compassion for the place. Donors are tired of giving cash of which only a smidgen reaches the people for whom it is intended. Food deliveries to starving people will continue, but these do nothing for collapsing economies.

The end of the Cold War means that no great power feels a need to buy influence here. For many years, African leaders bitterly denounced imperialist interference in their countries. Today they are learning international indifference is far more painful.

For most of Africa's people, the future looks even grimmer than the past. Aids is ravaging populations. The statisticians expect its consequences to grow much worse before they get better. The influential academic Philip Bobbitt, in his recent book The Shield Of Achilles, observed that he sees only misery ahead for Africans in 21st century, as disease, famine and corruption relentlessly assail them.

There was a vivid moment a couple of years ago during the first stage of the British intervention to support the struggling government of Sierra Leone. Its prime minister asked a visiting British politician, in the presence of journalists if it might be possible for his country to become part of the British Empire again. Most of those present believed that the Leonese leader was serious. The problems of African societies are so huge, so ay deep-rooted, that the few honest and decent politicians despair. They grasp at any straw to rescue their countries.

Zimbabwe’s remaining whites farm the land incomparably more efficiently than there black counterparts which makes their presence more intolerable

It is a tragic spectacle, and few expert onlookers see a way out. When the West does intervene in any African society it is essential to stay for at least ten years to have any hope of making lasting progress.

The Americans failed miserably in Somalia a decade ago, because they treated it as a short-term military problem. The British Army training team in Sierra Leone has done a good job but the lasting need is for civil assistance - to teach the people how to collect taxes, administer courts and run infrastructure costs.

Many Africans would be delighted if there was more of it about. But the political obstacles remain overwhelming, the imperial memory too fresh.

It is still far to soon to judge whether Britain’s intervention even in tiny Sierra Leone will accomplish anything of value. There is much to do and it is bound to take a long time.

Almost every Western attempt to help Africa flounders, sooner or later, amid the morass of political prejudice and cultural division. Zimbabwe’s remaining whites farm the land incomparably more efficiently than there black counterparts. But this makes their presence more intolerable, not less so to the likes of Robert Mugabe.

The big fib, propagated at the time of African independence was that local people wanted the right to vote. Not so. They scarcely cared a fig for the ballots, most of which were soon rigged anyway. They wanted the land, cars, houses, and swimming pools of their erstwhile white rulers. They still want these things, in Zimbabwe and South Africa generally.

Sooner of later most African leaders find it expedient to hand over the white man’s toys to their own people, without all the bother of explaining that these things should be won through education, skills, enterprise, and hard labour over generations.

I was never a supporter of Ian Smiths Rhodesia, which was founded upon a huge injustice to the blacks and sustained by cruelties as horrible as those of Mugabe today. White minority rule in South Africa was a loathsome thing. Thank God it has gone. But it remains a tragedy a tragedy to see black ruled Africa sinking into the swamp of history.

African rulers are overwhelmingly preoccupied with their personal cravings for wealth. Their subjects merely struggle to survive.

Outsiders can do little to save it from itself as long as it remains a continent of tyrants and democracy is making no headway at all. There is one striking oddity about Africa’s misery today, passions remain entirely internally directed.

Whereas in the Middle East resentment of the rich west spawns terrorism and active hostility, above all towards the United States, even Mugabe’s denunciations of Blair lack conviction. African rulers are overwhelmingly preoccupied with their personal cravings for wealth. Their subjects merely struggle to survive. Some observers believe that this may change as the power of Islam grows across the continent.

The influence of the Moslem religion may generate a new assertiveness, even aggression a decade or two onwards. For now, however, African passions focus exclusively upon their own societies and upon futile thrashings to make some brand of authoritarian Socialism blossom amidst the failing crops. You may have noticed that even as more and more whites are obliged to quit Africa, growing numbers of black Africans seek to migrate to Europe and the United States - refugees from the economic catastrophes their own rulers have created at home.

On every plane that bears sorrowing whites away from the continent of their birth into exile in Europe or Australia, there are also many seats occupied by departing blacks who are just as much victims. It is a bitter historic irony.

I believe that the remaining whites will continue to trickle away from Africa until there is only a handful of communities left between Cairo and the Cape.

Then the outside world may notice less, and care less, what happens to the continent because we will perceive no kin there. Africa’s story will have become and exclusively black disaster.

With all due respect people, I think Nancy got the picture!

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hmm
hmmm
hmmmm

I closed this topic yesterday, but have reconsidered. The very fact that it has attracted so much attention has to be an indication that the violence and unrest and unhealthy situation in South Africa must be a raw wound for many. I have also witnessed this at many South African get-togethers that I have attended. Invariably the conversation will turn towards people's experiences of violence or personal harm.

So ... in the light of free speech, and to aid the healing process, I have decided to reopen the topic. Sorry if it sounded as if I was being overly critical - maybe we DO need to get it all out in the open!

Hendie

AFRIKANERS IN EXILE (DEEL 1) ...
Deur Kleinsus en Kie

Ek is ’n jong Afrikaner in exile. Ek woon en werk in ’n vreemde land — nie omdat ek van benede vriespunt-weer hou, graag in oorvol moltreine ry of verkies om ’n vreemde taal te praat nie.

Ek is hier omdat my vaderland nie meer vir my ’n toekoms bied nie. En dit maak my bitter — en die duiwel in!

Nie die duiwel in vir die ANC nie. Hulle regeer die land en sal natuurlik vir hulle eie mense sorg. Ek is die duiwel in, sommer dik die duiwel in vir my eie “leiers”, mense aan wie ek my toekoms moes vertrou, net om op die harde manier uit te vind dat hulle vere voel vir my en my geslag.

Ons kan maar geoffer word. Ons kan maar werkloos wees. Ons moet maar regstellende aksie en die gevolge daarvan aanvaar. Ons moet net nie branders maak nie, want dit kan hulle veilige nessies dalk bedreig. Ons moet maar aanvaar wanneer ons nie beurse kry nie of wanneer ons nie gekeur word vir die beroep van ons keuses nie, al presteer ons hoe goed.

Ons moet maar aanvaar dat ons nie bevordering sal kry nie, al is ons hoe bekwaam. Die “gelukkiges” onder ons wat wel ’n pos in Suid-Afrika het, moet maar gewoond raak daaraan om elke oggend met ’n toegetrekte keel met die swaard van regstellende aksie oor ons kop werk toe gaan. Bek hou ... en wat van ons wat nie meer langer wil bek hou nie?

Dan klim ons op vliegtuie ... oorsee. Dit klink idillies. Verdien ponde of euro’s of dollars. Sien die wêreld. Maar wat van die lang, koue wintersaande, ver van almal vir wie jy regtig omgee? Bedags in ’n werksplek vol mense met wie jy bittermin in gemeen het. Beleefde praatjies. Oppervlakkige glimlaggies.

Terwyl jou hart verlang na die oop Karoovlaktes, Blouberg se strand, stil Vrystaatse aande met die rook van braaivleisvure wat regop boontoe trek. Jou mense. Jou wortels.

Jy gaan vakansies “huis toe”. Gaan traag terug.

Hoekom bly ons dan nie liewer nie? Hoekom nie help om Suid-Afrika ’n beter land te maak nie? Laat my sommer reguit sê hoekom ons dit nie doen nie: omdat ons nie vertoue het in die “ooms” wat aan ons leiding moet gee nie. Hulle vertel vir ons perdedinges is vye ... en is dan verbaas as ons dit nie glo nie.

Van ons word verlang om soos ’n lam na die slagpale heel gelate regstellende aksie te aanvaar. Glo om entrepreneurs te word. Maar aanvaar tog net asseblief die nuwe arbeidswetgewing. Moenie weerstand bied teen die onbillike diskriminasie in die werkplek nie. En moet in hemelsnaam tog nie ’n kabaal opskop oor taalerkenning nie. En o ja, onthou tog dat, as dit gebeur dat die rand verswak, dit eintlik goeie nuus is!

Moet tog net nie roeringe maak nie, want dit sal ons politici en mediamanne in ’n moeilike posisie plaas. Hulle kan dit tog nie steun nie. Netnou lyk dit asof hulle nie verbind is tot transformasie nie of dalk nog erger — apartheid ondersteun! Die ANC sal nie daarvan hou nie ... en dit kan miskien hulle veilige posisies of transaksies in gedrang bring. So, offer, Boeties en Sussies, hou julle bek, bly stil!

Ons haal ons hoed af vir die enkele voorlopers wat al na vore gekom het om vir ons belange — en veral vir Afrikaans — in die bres te tree. Maar ons eie Afrikaanse koerante val oor hulle voete om diesulkes te diskrediteer. Hulle maak rimpels, sien! Dis nie “polities korrek” nie. Ons hoor van “samewerkende regering”. Opposisie wat dit nie kan bekostig om Afrikaner-belange te beskerm nie, want dit sal moontlike swart steun in gedrang bring. As die Boetie en Sussies daarvoor opgeoffer moet word — so be it! Die doel heilig die middel!

As van my word verwag om te assimileer en op te gaan in ’n nuwe nasie, doen ek dit liewer hier, in ’n veilige land met eerste wêreld standaarde. Dis opvallend dat die uitgesproke voorpraters van die huidige situasie in die Nuwe Suid-Afrika in lekker beskermde posisies sit — parlementêre setels, universiteitsposte, preekstoele, redaksies en direksies! Maklik om dan voorspraak vir opofferings te maak!

Die prys wat betaal moet word, is glo as gevolg van die “legacy of apartheid”. Maar ons, ek en my mede-bannelinge in die vreemde het boggerol te doene gehad met apartheid. Vervlaks, meeste van ons kon nog nie eens stem toe die ANC ontban is nie! Goed, ons het goeie onderwys ontvang en het die geleentheid gehad om verder te studeer, maar ons moes maar self geld vir ons studies saamskraap — en weer swaar daaraan afbetaal. Ons kwalifikasies het ook nie uit die lug geval nie. Ons moes ons kant bring en sorg dat ons slaag.

Die geleenthede wat aan ons as Afrikaner-jeug gebied is, was niks gunstiger as die van die jong Duitser of Amerikaner of Brit nie. Dat derduisende swart Suid-Afrikaners nie dieselfde geleenthede gehad het nie, was verkeerd en natuurlik moet daar maniere gevind word om die foute van die verlede reg te stel. Maar hoekom ten koste van óns? Hoekom moet óns skuldig voel en alleen die prys betaal?

Interesting page by Britian's Foreign and Commonwealth Office Country Advice for britains wanting to travel to South Africa : South Africa.

I have sat here quietly and every day visited this topic to see what the latest replies are. Granted I am still sitting in South Africa and maybe my opinion will have me banned from this message board but I also need to have my say. We all have our reasons for wanting to live in South Africa for myself it is because as someone said I do not believe that there is an economic future for two school going boys in this country. I am hoping that moving to Canada will give them some freedom of choice.

Nancy, who initiated this topic, on the other hand as obviously lived a productive life in Canada and is looking to fulfill her dream living in a place where she can garden all year round. South Africa has its problems but there are areas where she can fulfill her dream without being as highly exposed to the ravages of crime as those of us who live in Johannesburg or Cape Town or other high crime areas. She is not likely to buy a farm which is also a high risk lifestyle these days particularly if you are "elderly", with respect Nancy. Before everyone starts to think I have never personally been affected by crime my husband and a group of fellow Lions, as in service organisation, were held up at gunpoint while trying to help an community in Soweto. Crazy you might say but they were personally asked to go there by the then mayor of Roodepoort. But that is maybe my point most of us would not go into those places because we know better. I think that the website Hendi pointed us to is quite impartial there is crime in all areas but some are serious no-go areas and they must be avoided.

Those of us who live in the cities live surrounded by our high walls, security fencing and alarms but people in the type of areas where Nancy would probably settle like Port Alfred, Knysna etc do not live like that. We have gone or are going through the difficult process of being accepted in a country other than the land of our birth and we all know that it is hard to get other countries to let us in. Nancy and her husband would go to South Africa and be able to return if the need arose because they already have Canadian citizenship.

Does leaving SA make everyone bitter and twisted and only look at the negatives? I attended Robin's seminar in Pretoria and I found what he had to say very reasoned and then he sent out his e-zine. Since reading it I have asked many locals, including people who live in Pretoria whether they had heard of Two-step. I have not found anyone who has yet. We refer to our high road death rate and at the risk of being an ostrich we forget to mention that a large percentage of those killed are pedestrians often full of the Christmas spirit. We also forget to take into consideration and tell those people who do not know that one accident involving two 16 seater taxis can see upto 50 (slight exaggeration to make my point) killed or injured. That is not to say the any life lost is not to be regretted. Maybe in South Africa they should report on the number of accidents involving fatalities rather than the number of fatalities.

Sorry if I am treading on toes and I hope that you do not ostracize me before I even get to Canada but I had to look at this topic from a different view point.

Cathy,

Your views and statements are by no means "ban calliber". Like I've said previously, everyone has their own reasons for leaving South Africa. We are not here to encourage or discourage that, but to present the facts in as objective a way as possible.

We really do want to encourage people to speak their mind here, and short of persistent obscenity and profanity (which I haven't seen on our forum yet), you are welcome to express your views here without fear of being banned.

H.

Two-steps.....ooooo....I know what that is...what Robin said is true.....they do kill dogs (and other wildlife, like birds) with it....and it does only take 2 steps and then they will drop dead. This was on ""Carte Blanche" about a year ago on how many guard dogs were poisned in the Pretoria / Johannesburg area. This is a very dangerous poison....and they buy it on the Black market in SA.

Regarding your point of view.....I respect that, and agree that there is parts is SA that is still relatively save. I also think that there is lots of SA'cans that left SA without having any personal experience with the crime, it was just a case of "get out while you can!" I however (just like you) had quite a few experiences in my close family, and also decided that if I (we) do get the chance to leave, we will.....and we did! We did not want to wait untill something happen before we decide to leave.....I mean then it is to late. SA is a beautifull country, my husband and I love it very much even with all that is going on there now.....we love it, but we wanted a future for us and out children, just like all the other SA'cans who left.

I feel that if Nancy really feel stronly about going (living there) to SA, then I will wish her all the best and really hope that she will fulfill her dream.

Joke : I do not think there is a chance that Nancy could love gardening more than we love SA....and still we left . But I guess it is something like us farmers...we know we do not make money.....but still we can not stop farming.....that is what we like to do.......it is in the blood

Hi Nancy!
After reading your lenthy posts - here's a bit from me!
My husband and I have just applied to emigrate, but are still in the beginning of a wait that seems to be close to 2 1/2 to 3 years.
I thought to write, mainly because of 2 reasons:
we are still 'young' - under 30 and therefore part of the 'new' south africa, and we have been living in the Eastern Cape for the past 3-odd years!
As for our reasons for going: a simplistic answer would be the safety factor, and a future for our (yet unborn!) children. It is impossible to describe to you the interaction on a social and individual level that makes the safety of one's life come a concern. It is the looks from complete strangers when walking down the road, the leers from street vendors when you're not interested in their produce, and the unbelief in a fellow young south african's eyes when you offer them a geniune smile. For me, our decision has never been about white people being racist - in fact, the Indian and coloured communities are so blatantly racist that its sometimes hard to know how to deal with it. A Muslim friend of mine was explaining the other day that she teaches her children as she was taught by her father - you do not choose people with different hair (!) as friends. So I guess what I'm saying, is that a very large majority of South Africans are paying lipservice to equality, which puts the end result of a unified country a far time away from now.
Yet the spirit of the place is strong - Africa will always be unique, and I am hoping that life will get better - for everybody here.
Now - for the Eastern Cape. I grew up in the Western Cape, and moved subsequently. We've lived in East London for 3+ years, and now in Port Elizabeth for a year. There is a marked difference between the 2 cities - PE is definitey drier and a lot windier - the vegetation literally changes once you come over Alexandria and into PE. East London and surrounds are humid and tropical to a certain extent - not always comfortable though. If you have enough money to stay in the medium to upper class neighborhoods (Vincent Heights, Stirling, Bonnie Doon), or in Gonubie along the beach front, and enough money to have burglar alarms with armed response, a big dog (read alsation size), burglar bars and security gates, a perimiter wall, and automatic gate opeing fitted in your house, go for it. I'm not being sarcastic - we did not have any of these - after one burglary, we had fixed the burglar bars, after the 2nd one (I surprised them in the house) we had the alarm fitted, and after the 3rd we got a dog - a boerboel, a south african type of dog bred to catch lions. I enjoyed east london - if you play by the rules, and stay away from town and go only to the shopping chopping centres in the ok neighborhoods, you'll be fine.
If i were you - I'd move to the coast somewhere on the Garden route. the plant life is very varied, with little pockets with fynbos mixed with more tropical / forest areas. the frost you're talking about does not happen at the coast - maybe some at george - my grandmother used to stay there - and then only on very rare occasions. The climate at the coast is temperate with rain in winter, but not exclusively so - there's basically rain throughout the year. And if you can afford to stay in either Knysna, Wilderness or Sedgefield - go for it - its breathtakingly beautiful and climate is absolutely lovely.
My inlaws live on the west coast, and although its definitely safer there (cars and belongings can still be parked outside), I don't think the flora will appeal to you if you prefer the jade vine!
Jade vines can be coaxed to grow in other SA gardens apart from the EC - I remember reading an article in one of our local house / garden magazines. Why don't you subscribe?
hope that helps
regards,

Bianca, your description of the localities, growing conditions and all the rest is really helpful. You're clearly very knowledgeable about gardening. I'd love to subscribe to the gardening magazine you mention, if they ship overseas, but what is the name of it?

What I've got so far from my contact with all of you has been immensely useful. We are thinking that our best strategy is to go, probably after November of this year, and spend 2 or 3 months in the Western Cape, looking particularly at the Knysna/Sedgefield area. I've since been put in touch with people in Toronto from Knysna. Ideally, we would like to rent a house for the period, or stay in a self-catering bed and breakfast, though I've not been able to find anything suitable online yet. A house exchange would be ideal, but not too likely I think. That should give us enough time to look around and get a feel for things, and also to see something of the country and check out real estate in person. If anyone has leads to somewhere to stay for the longer term, please let me know.

As to crime, and the AIDS pandemic, I do not think they can be ignored. There is an extremely serious problem with both there, and until the government makes some visible progress in dealing with them, we have to be cautious. I'm aware that they are worse in some parts than others. But there needs to be some outward sign, some internationally recognized indication that attempts to curb both are serious and effective. There's also the problem of whether a new government might be more extreme, might see itself only in the context of Africa, solidarity and so on. This seems less likely, because I believe SA genuinely needs and wants foreign trade and foreign investment and persecuting minorities is not the way to to get it. But - we'll see which way the wind blows and meanwhile explore it as visitors. We cancelled a trip this month in order to be able to go to SA later this year, so we are quite resolved.

Once again, thanks.

Hi there

here are some links that may help:

Accommodation:

Holiday homes:

Travel @ iafrica

Portfolio collection (really good)

Aardvark's accomodation links

A really nice site:
Garden Route webpage

Gardening:

National botanical institue South Africa

Other:
SA newspapers

I'll look at home to check what the magazine says about subscribing and get back to you.
Happy surfing!

I agree with everything everyone here has written.

I am now in Canada and miss South Africa so much. I don't miss all the crime and other political nonsense.

You mentioned you wanted to retire. I honestly believe you can find a safe place in South Africa and especially in the eastern cape. One really beautiful costal town just outside of Port Elizabeth called Blue Horizon bay. It has many retirees from all over the world. The properties are cheap and I have not heard of any crime problems they have had.

Medical insurance will cost you about 200 canadian dollars per month and about 350 for both you and your husband.

I would honestly say if I was in your position I would go. Infact I would probably spend my summers in South Africa and then spend the summer in Canada. I would definetly go and spend a few months in a small town in South Africa and you could decide then if it is worth it.

I think if you avoid the larger cities you should be safe.

All the best in making these decisions.

PS NO high walls and fences in blue horizon bay.

Hi Pierre,

I found your chat on the circumstances in SA and ecpecially Clem Sunter very interesting.You obviously also come from a corprota background.
Let me tell you, I attended so many motivational seminars and met the most incredible people, including Alison..the lady that was left for dead in
PE and survived to tell the tale.

For many years we drew strenght from them and our faith that things would change in SA..but facing a gun with two kids in the carseat quickly makes you forgot all the speeches and strategies.

I daily thank the lord for having the opportunity to be here in Cambridge..even if we had to shovel for 3 hour today!!!!
I do believe that a person should have faith and perseverance but I also believe that some doors open and that we need to sometimes take the road less taken..if it was not for the Dutch and the Hugenots and the Voortrekker who all had to leave their homeland at some time...where would we all have been???
And I must say...having found this website has really helped me cope much better with the homesickness!!!!!!!

Hallo Bob,

Dis goed om te hoor dat SACanada sy doel vervul in die deling van verlange en gemis wat ons almal maar het oor ons geliefde land, Suid-Afrika. Die blote feit dat 'n mens hier kan lees hoe ander ook terugverlang, maar des nieteenstaande nog bly glo dat hulle die regte besluit geneem het, het vir mý ook al baie beteken. 'n Mens wonder soms, "is ek dan die enigste ene wat so voel?", almal vertel jou dan net altyd hoe goed dit gaan. Ek vermoed dat die effe verwydering van die ander persoon van jouself op so 'n forum, en die kans wat jy het om ander se opmerkings te lees en dan in jou eie tyd daarop te kan antwoord, hierdie medium uniek maak.

Ja, ons is weereens pioniers, met dieselfde gees waarmee ons voorouers so 'n wonderlike beskawing tot stand gaan bring het in Suid-Afrika. Met vriende en kollegas soos die Suid-Afrikaners wat ons hier al ontmoet het, durf ek met graagte die toekoms aan hier in ons nuwe land!

Nancy,
For what its worth - This IS good advice .......

Once again, I'm beholden for the interest in my query and all the advice. It's obviously not coming from nowhere, but from people's experiences, so I do take it as buyer beware. We think we should go for 2 or 3 months to prospect - that's if we can find a reasonable place to rent by the month, it's not proving easy - in an area that is generally considered safer. We decided on the Garden Route, centred around George, I guess because we feel comfortable with a small city.

One disturbing thing to me is the new proposed immigration law. Without repeating the whole thing, we would in essence have to take out visas for 3 months, renewable with a sound reason for another 3 if we want to stay 6 months. We would have to show that we have 4,500 Canadian $ each per month, or total assets of 2.7 million. For those wanting permanent residence, it is also possible to pay 100,000 Rand as a one-time fee to get through the process quickly.

To me all this sounds like the current government wants quick cash, and the easiest way to make it is of course from well-off foreigners (though I don't know too many middle-class Canadians with assets of nearly 3 million). What they don't seem to grasp is that they will get just the customers they deserve with such rules - Russian mafia for example, the same gang who've taken all the Mediterranean resorts in Slovenia, former Yugoslavia, southern Bulgaria and so on. Hello crime, and all their new money laundering rules won't help because I don't suppose South Africa really has the infrastructure to implement them.

Apparently there is opposition to this proposed law, but who knows? It sure looks like the low road to me. Never having immigrated to Canada, I don't know what the comparable rules are, but I thought there was a point system that at least ensured a few human or intellectual assets. But I'm sure with enough money people get in as they please here as well.

Meanwhile, I do hear about people from the US and Europe who have bought real estate in South Africa, so it just adds to my confusion. Making a 2 or 3 month visit seems like the best way to sort things out.

Galpil, dis met groot belangstelling dat ek hierdie onderwerp lees en is vrek nuuskierig om te weet presies wie jy is... want sien daar was 'n Galpil saam met my susters (Meta en Magriet Louw) op skool in Pretoria. Verder sien ek jy is ook 'n Louw soos ons! Bepaald interessant, soubitter graag meer oor jou wou uitvind